Some IDPA what if's re: scoring

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  • amboy49

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    Having now been to a handful of IDPA shooting events and still being far from being remotely competitive against anyone but myself, I find questions arising re: the scoring process. I have found the following is a normal sequence of events:

    Once the course of fire is completed by the shooter, the range officer advances to the target(s) and proclaims the results. i.e. points down per target, any failure to engage, or hit on non-threat, etc. VERY quickly thereafter, the other shooters are encouraged to paste the targets to keep the shoot moving. At a recent shoot a friend and I experienced:

    The RO not correctly scoring the "points down" total (two shots were clearly touching perforations - which are supposed to be given the lesser point deduction )

    One call by the RO where the shooter hit a hard cover but was penalized with a "hit on a non-threat. "

    No verbal indication to the shooter during any stage of the shoot of a procedural error but then finding two procedurals were assigned as shown on the final shoot scores published for the event.

    One shooter failed to complete the course of fire due to a gun malfunction. His time was counted up to the point of malfunction and then a number of points down were assigned to the targets he failed to engage. No FTE penalty points were assigned. The net result was actually to the benefit of the shooter.

    This leads me to several questions:

    Is it proper and acceptable or considered bad etiquette to request that the targets NOT be pasted until the shooter has had sufficient time to verify the scoring. (not an issue, obviously, if all the shots are in ( and called ) the down zero area ?

    At what point, and how, is it correct to question a call on a target. i.e. round showing on the target perforation but given the higer down point ?

    Should a shooter request their score sheet and review same at the end of the shoot to ensure his score(s) have been recorded correctly ? Should he actually sign it (like,say, a golf card). I have not been to a shoot where the score sheets are provided for review nor anyone signing their score sheet.

    I realize all of the shoots are put on with completely volunteer help doing the very best they can. However, I also finding that all shoots are not run the same nor are all RO's equally qualified and skilled.

    I welcome the thoughts and comments of fellow IDPA shooters.

    Thanks in advance.
     

    Grizhicks

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    While it's been about 18 months since I shot an IDPA match, here's my 2-cents:

    You should follow the RO/scorer and see your shots. If they are going too fast ask them to slow down. Also, the targets should not be pasted until the RO has scored them. If you're following the RO as they score, question them if you need to. Plus, the RO should tell you about any "Ps" and why. Normally at the state match you will sign/initial the score sheet for each stage.

    As you shoot more, you'll be counting/scoring your targets as quickly as the RO and know if he is right or not. At monthly matches I normally didn't worry about a few points here & there (you don't want to question everything), but if you shoot a state or higher, that's where it really matters.

    Good luck and have fun...... Greg/Grizhicks
     

    ViperJock

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    You can argue the shots if you think they are down scoring you. I'm not sure why you were unable to follow the scoring but you should have time to since no one should go down range from you until you are safe. At that point why can't you go too? Be polite about it. How they score malfunctions should be a matter of official IDPA rules.

    IMO unless you are in the running to win I'd make sure my own score is correct to follow my progress and let the rest of it go. For your own mental health.
     

    Hogwylde

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    Having now been to a handful of IDPA shooting events and still being far from being remotely competitive against anyone but myself.........................

    Until you start becoming "remotely competitive", don't worry about your score. Work on your speed and accuracy. Once you reach the point where you are or should be placing in the top 5 of your classification, THEN you can worry about 5 points here or a second or two there.

    A couple of points difference between last and next to last is HARDLY worth worrying about at your stage of the game. And remember, it IS a game. But, it's a FUN game that lets you practice things that you MIGHT actually use in a real world defensive situation. And, you get to hang around with a bunch of other people that like to have fun with guns too!

    If you just HAVE to make sure you are scored correctly, YOU have to follow the RO around while he/she scores your targets. It's YOUR responsibility to question the accuracy and if you just sit there and don't say anything, the score stands. Period.
     

    rvb

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    Until you start becoming "remotely competitive", don't worry about your score.

    100% DISagree. If you have a desire to improve and are competitive minded, you have to be invested. Know your score (and the scoring rules), know what % of shots went outside the A-zone and track your progress, know where the bullets landed on paper and how that compares to your calls, etc. "Whatever" is absolutely the wrong mindset if you ever want to become "remotely competitive."

    If you just HAVE to make sure you are scored correctly, YOU have to follow the RO around while he/she scores your targets. It's YOUR responsibility to question the accuracy and if you just sit there and don't say anything, the score stands. Period.

    This I agree with. No one will hold up a match by not pasting for you. When you are done shooting, follow the RO and make sure you agree with his calls. Why aren't you looking at the targets at the same time as the RO and questioning any calls right then?

    Signing score cards happens at majors. Not often at locals.

    IF they are scoring behind you while you are shooting, only then it would be reasonable to ask them to hold off pasting until you can glance at them. Better yet, ask a squadmate to witness the scoring on targets scored while you are shooting. Often, it's common courtesy to not paste misses/penalties in these cases until the shooter can see the target/s.

    -rvb
     

    Rob377

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    What RVB said.

    Matches are a test of your skill, and whether it's improving or not. There's absolutely no point going to one if isn't going to be scored properly.

    If you're not shooting for a real score, save the $15-20 and the hours spent waiting around and go practice on your own.

    RO/SO usually get to shoot for free, so their 'volunteer' status is no excuse for not doing the job correctly.
     

    Mike Elzinga

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    You paid a match fee, you have just as much right to a true and accurate score as everyone else. As said earlier, as soon as you unload, show clear and holster, follow the RO and observe him scoring your targets, any questions you have, ask in a polite and courteous way. Any RO worth his salt with be happy to explain any penalties or possible judgement calls. If an RO has a problem doing that, then he shouldn't be an RO anymore.
     

    Grelber

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    This leads me to several questions:

    Is it proper and acceptable or considered bad etiquette to request that the targets NOT be pasted until the shooter has had sufficient time to verify the scoring.

    I'd recommend against it unless there was some reason (trophies, prize money, etc.) why it was worth slowing down the match and irritating the s.o. and/or your fellow shooters. Sort of depends on whether or not your group is pressed for time and potentially slowing up eveyone else, or running ahead with time to spare.
    A good squad will be there with pasters while a lot of the scoring gets done, so if you and your fellow shooters are doing your part then many of the targets get two sets of eyes on them anyway.

    At what point, and how, is it correct to question a call on a target.

    Judgement call depending on circumstances. I will always question what looks like a bad call on somebody else.

    Should a shooter request their score sheet and review same at the end of the shoot to ensure his score(s) have been recorded correctly ?

    Still doesn't mean they will be entered correctly by the poor volunteer tally person who gets griped at if things aren't done fast and also gets griped at if one of the hundreds of numbers they entered is in error.
    At big matches you will get a copy of your score, at local/fun matches where it really doesn't matter, it really doesn't matter.

    Really, until you get to be competing for something beyond fun and self improvement, you are a lot better off not fretting over scoring trivia which will even out in the long view and instead worrying about things like your grip and front site focus and what you can do to help the match run smoothly.
     

    sbcman

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    I realize all of the shoots are put on with completely volunteer help doing the very best they can. However, I also finding that all shoots are not run the same nor are all RO's equally qualified and skilled.

    The last sentence nailed it. If the experiences by you and your friend was with the same SO- easy fix- squad with another SO. Some SOs are great and understand both the rules and spirit of IDPA. Some are horrible and have no business performing that task. It doesn't benefit a club or shooters to have such SOs working matches.

    Which brings up another thought- the club itself. Of the 4 or so clubs I shoot at regularly, only one has the shooter sign off on their scoresheet. All the clubs are good clubs, but this particular club will allow shooters to view their targets, even if there's no question about the score, just to see where they are making hits (shooters choice). In fairness, this club hosts the best IDPA shooters in the region and the MD is an avid major match shooter. EVERYTHING is done by the book and the SOs are excellent. All that said to say that some clubs will gladly accept the thoughts you're considering, others won't. If it is important to you, I'd bring it up. In any event, things like PEs, FTEs and FTN should be allowed to be either explained (PE) or viewed (FTE, FTN) by the shooter.

    And don't let the volunteer thing be a reason why the task can't be performed adequately. I hear this a lot and it's really no excuse. Pasting is also a volunteer effort, but could you imagine the wrath that would come down if a paster put two pasters anywhere except the bullet holes and their excuse was "I'm just a volunteer"? Volunteer or not, if you can't perform the task, don't take the job. When you put cash down on a match, you've bought the right for things to be taken care of rightly. :twocents:

    I wish you well in your shooting endeavors.
     
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    amboy49

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    I'm the OP. The purpose of my post was not to cast doubt on the scoring process or the RO/SO or any of the volunteer help. However, if the shooter is not given enough time to look at the targets before they are pasted there's no way to determine where errant shots are occuring and if there is a pattern. When I first started shooting registed skeet I knew I had trouble with the high 2 and low 6 targets. I almost never missed targets on low 7, low 1, etc. Therefore, I used my practice sessions to work on the targets that gave me trouble. My intent is to do the same for the targets that are giving me trouble on the IDPA courses of fire - and to be able to do that I need to understand where the down points are. If the targets are pasted so fast as to prevent a short diagnosis of the down points it prevents the learning experience to occur. This is especially true for new shooters like myself who have a number of down points on targets. Hopefully, the time will come when those shots outside of the down zero area are minimized.

    If there are procedural errors I feel those need to be disclosed immediately after the shooter is finished and the range is called safe. The best shoots I've been to have been both fun and educational. The shoots that don't produce those results are also a learning experience for me - just a different type of learning. I am appreciative of the many folks who have been both understanding and helpful to this new shooter. I'm certain that's why I have always enjoyed the shooting sports.
     

    Coach

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    Just follow the SO and look at each target as he/she does. You will verify the scoring is correct and see your hits or misses as you go and the squad can still move along and not hold up the show.

    There is nothing wrong with insisting on the correct score. Any SO can make a mistake. Calling every miss a perfect double is not acceptable. I am not saying that is what you or anyone else is doing but I have seen it be a problem.
     

    DustyDawg48

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    As others have said, if it appears to be a single SO that isn't quite calling the scores correctly then the best thing to do is try to get in a different squad. Hopefully the incorrect calls are consistent all across the board and he isn't just targeting a few people that are shooting better then their buddies.

    SO's, even though they probably shouldn't be, are like umpires in baseball. Each ump has their own personality and strike zone just like many SO's do. I do think it is acceptable to question calls although I don't make a habit of it for myself. When I SO/Score I tend to do it quickly and have missed a few but a good score keeper will be right behind you, or the shooter, to help find those few that a person may have missed.

    You paid your money the same as everyone else so you deserve to have your score calculated the same, too.
     

    Grelber

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    However, if the shooter is not given enough time to look at the targets before they are pasted there's no way to determine where errant shots are occuring and if there is a pattern.

    If there are procedural errors I feel those need to be disclosed immediately after the shooter is finished and the range is called safe.

    Hmm, I misread the original post then. If you have trouble keeping up with the s.o. during the scoring then most folks will be very happy to accommodate you. It is our privilege to shoot with folks that might not have the knees or ears they used to and a tap on the back when the buzzer goes off or a slower walk during the scoring is not a big deal.

    It is unusual in my experience for an s.o. not to inform the shooter of a procedural, sometimes I really wish they wouldn't :). Nothing wrong with your asking the s.o. or scorekeeper to let you know just in case.

    When you put cash down on a match, you've bought the right for things to be taken care of rightly. :twocents:

    At major matches you are dropping major bucks, there might be something at stake, and it makes sense that for $80.00 and well beyond you should have optimistic expectations that the details will be well addressed.

    $20 or less at a local fun match, under practically any circumstances, is one heck of a screaming giant bargain if you've got insight into the work behind the match/cost of range facilities/cost of match consumables/interference with other range activities/yadda yadda yadda. Shut up and shoot :)
     

    Mike Elzinga

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    He thread has sort of drifted, because I am not commenting on the OPs statements at all and have no clue what club he may be referencing, but I have shot more than a couple matches over the years and have very strong opinions on this topic.

    Nothing in life is a deal unless you benefit from it. So if you pay $1 entry fee and end up throwing away your Saturday, burning good ammo on poorly designed stages and a tank of fuel to get cheated out of your fair score by some biased and crooked RO, that ain't a deal at all. Clearly that is a worst case scenario and I'm sure not nearly as bad as what the OP experienced. However, if a club can charge money to shoot there, then they are charged with the responsibility of doing it fairly. I understand its a volunteer run thing, but as previously stated, that's no excuse to do a poor job.

    If I recall correctly, and I might not, last time I shot the USPSA nationals, entry was $250, and I got every penny's worth and shot a terrible match that was 100% my fault and had a great time. I've also shot smaller club level matches for $15 and got robbed. I'm the least competitive person to ever exist but if I paid for it and put in the sweat and time of preparing for a match, giving up my Saturday, gas, ammo entry fee and helping my squad at the match, I think a fair and accurate score is a reasonable request. I think bad matches are few and far between but if you have questions or concerns then you should never feel nervous to ask. I would never penalize a shooter without telling them and explaining why/what they did. If its an edge shot that is very close, it's really easy to hold up an overlay. When I RO a shooter I never have a problem with someone who needs an extra minute to look at their targets or as a question, because when I'm shooting, you better believe that I won't be shy about asking any question I might have.
     

    sbcman

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    He thread has sort of drifted, because I am not commenting on the OPs statements at all and have no clue what club he may be referencing, but I have shot more than a couple matches over the years and have very strong opinions on this topic.

    Nothing in life is a deal unless you benefit from it. So if you pay $1 entry fee and end up throwing away your Saturday, burning good ammo on poorly designed stages and a tank of fuel to get cheated out of your fair score by some biased and crooked RO, that ain't a deal at all. Clearly that is a worst case scenario and I'm sure not nearly as bad as what the OP experienced. However, if a club can charge money to shoot there, then they are charged with the responsibility of doing it fairly. I understand its a volunteer run thing, but as previously stated, that's no excuse to do a poor job.

    If I recall correctly, and I might not, last time I shot the USPSA nationals, entry was $250, and I got every penny's worth and shot a terrible match that was 100% my fault and had a great time. I've also shot smaller club level matches for $15 and got robbed. I'm the least competitive person to ever exist but if I paid for it and put in the sweat and time of preparing for a match, giving up my Saturday, gas, ammo entry fee and helping my squad at the match, I think a fair and accurate score is a reasonable request. I think bad matches are few and far between but if you have questions or concerns then you should never feel nervous to ask. I would never penalize a shooter without telling them and explaining why/what they did. If its an edge shot that is very close, it's really easy to hold up an overlay. When I RO a shooter I never have a problem with someone who needs an extra minute to look at their targets or as a question, because when I'm shooting, you better believe that I won't be shy about asking any question I might have.

    :+1:
     

    Grelber

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    Nothing in life is a deal unless you benefit from it. So if you pay $1 entry fee and end up throwing away your Saturday, burning good ammo on poorly designed stages and a tank of fuel to get cheated out of your fair score by some biased and crooked RO, that ain't a deal at all. Clearly that is a worst case scenario and I'm sure not nearly as bad as what the OP experienced. However, if a club can charge money to shoot there, then they are charged with the responsibility of doing it fairly. I understand its a volunteer run thing, but as previously stated, that's no excuse to do a poor job.

    Fairly and perfectly are maybe being mixed together here. I've never heard of scoring cheating at a local/fun match so I'm guessing that is a major match concern. I don't know what point it would serve otherwise.

    I can see why you might not find a particular match worthwhile when all expenses are tallied up though and would choose to vote with your feet. There is an overall match quality thing, but the other part is that one man's trash is another man's treasure.
     

    BJones

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    You deserve to see your targets and to kow where your hits are. You also deserve competent R/O's. Dont be afraid to speak up if things are going in a way you do not agree with or understand.
    If you are not happy with somthing, let the range master know, he cannot fix a problem he doesnt know he has.
    Dont let a poor experience ruin you exitement for IDPA. 99% of the volunteers want to do a good job, but every now and then even the best R/O has a brain fart. Tactfully tell them what is on your mind.
     
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