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Moving targets
- Thread starter Coach
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Good stuff.
I wonder if a lot of folks (yours truly for example) have a tendency to look at (focus on) the mover and not get a normal front sight focus? It seems like my level of stinky is at its peak on fast movers so I keep wondering if there are other keys beyond what was mentioned in the video.
I wonder if a lot of folks (yours truly for example) have a tendency to look at (focus on) the mover and not get a normal front sight focus? It seems like my level of stinky is at its peak on fast movers so I keep wondering if there are other keys beyond what was mentioned in the video.
Movers do tend to draw attention from the front sight and that is a problem. The other thing inexperienced people tend to do is double tap movers. One sight picture and two shots. If you cannot shoot fast enough to take two sighted shots on a drop turner then just shot one or leave it alone.
On most swingers there is enough time for two sight pictures if you ambush it at the pause point they refer to in the video. If you cannot do two shots in one pass it will take two passes and that means less time so get Alphas. Typically you want to shoot it twice on the first pause or pass.
Early in the year at ACC there was a swinger in an IDPA and I shot it at the pause point. Some gentleman in the squad, who I did not know, was intrigued. He came up afterward and said it looked like you planned to shoot it when it stopped. I told him I did plan it, and that is how to shoot swingers most of the time.
Experience with moving targets helps tremendously. But just relax and shoot them and don't be tense.
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downrange72
Grandmaster
I hate swingers with a passion. I missed one in Ohio by two feet low into a no shoot. I was not looking there, but the gun was obviously pointed there.
Here are mine that I have made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFD_BqKDkHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2djEVm3_auk
The pop up is going through a redesign and insead of a pull string it will have a 6 inch steel circle trigger that you shoot to activate the pop up target. Along with a steel frame. The spinning also has a new motor that should be better than that one was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFD_BqKDkHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2djEVm3_auk
The pop up is going through a redesign and insead of a pull string it will have a 6 inch steel circle trigger that you shoot to activate the pop up target. Along with a steel frame. The spinning also has a new motor that should be better than that one was.
I think swingers are a lot of fun. For the most part I usually don't have problems making good hits. I am just not very fast and might have to let it swing by twice, depends on how it is set up. Drop turns usually are not too bad. It is the clam shells that get me.
downrange72
Grandmaster
Who knows...I can honestly tell you I was staring at the target but I know the sights were nowhere near what I was looking at
I had a lot of issues that day. I'm going to blame 3 hours of sleep, driving 2 hours, listening to Jake talk on the way there and anticipating a repeat performance on the way home
. I'm looking forward to getting a little trigger time in the next two weekends. I just wish I had a little more time to get used to the Eagle before the state match. I love the way it shoots...just not quite used to reloading with the trigger finger and all that jazz. I have sent two emails to Mitchell, with no return. I wonder if the guy is even still in business.
Had not thought of this before on drop turners. Only shooting once is a good plan on a fast moving drop turner, since there is no penelty. My second shot is usually a mike or a D anyway.
It reminds me of a stage at ACC once where one popper activated 2 movers. There was only one guy who got both hits on paper on the second DT. Most didn't waste the time engaging it at all.
I tried to man up, but missed both shots.
While two aimed/called shots is absolutely ideal, I'd rather have one aimed shot and a "hope" shot than no second shot at all... even if a NPM, those are points you're just leaving on the table (a 7HF stage means .14s per point, so even if you only snag a D shooting minor, you've at least broke even). If it's a mover that doesn't disapear, you can't afford to just give away another 10 points...
Whether I ambush or track a swinger depends on the speed of the swinger... if slow enough, I won't wait for it to stop, I'll aim for the leading C.
-rvb
I took a class with Manny a couple years ago and we went over swingers quite a bit. Always hated them before that class. Love them now. He likes the ambush approach when possible, but you take your first shot as the target is slowing, not when its actually stopped. Then the second shot is taken at or about when the target is stopped or even when its going back up slightly. If you wait until it fully stops then try to rip 2 shots into it, be prepared to hear "Alpha-Mike" from the RO when scoring.
I was not talking about non-disappearing targets. That is different.
What you do with a swinger is different than what a shooter who is not as well developed should do. I was gearing my comments toward folks who have not gained a lot of experience. I think there needs to be shooter development on the topic of movers. One sight picture and two shots is common. I see it in many shooters and they end up with a lot of mikes that way. Needlessly in many cases. They have more time than they think.
Before issues of hit factor and scoring get into the mix getting the hits on the target should be the first order of business.
In your example it cost you time. Time is score as well as points.
Knowing your game and what you are capable of is valuable information when making a plan.
No shoots popping up from beneath your field of vision can be a huge pain. 300 rounds fired at Area 5 this year and my only mike was because of a clam shell that popped up in the way. A little flinch or hesitation there costs you big time.
Movers demand that you shoot well, shoot within your game or hope you get lucky, and have a solid plan that you can accomplish. Plus movers tend to create mental tension or discomfort and we know that can be a big road block to match performance.
Stages with moving targets do tend to be a great divider of top shooters from decent shooters to new shooters. Even if everyone can get the hits on target, what can be done in between the activator and the paper? new shooters make the transition and burn up time. Decent shooters take a target or two in between. Top shooters, take a few targets and take the activated paper on on the way out of the position like it is standing still. Definitely a good test and nothing beats a lot of time on them!
Oh, sorry, I thought we were learning to maximize our scores on movers.
If you want to maximize % of successful hits, fire one shot. But that's not how we score. If you want to maximize points, fire as many as required in the stage brief at a minimum.
I, too was talking about disapearing targets. 0.15s for a second shot will not hurt your HF significantly if you end up w/ a NPM. but giving yourself the opportunity to earn up to 5 points could significantly help your HF (would have the same affect as being ~.6s faster).
I thought I was, too, or my response would have been a lot different. If a shooter is not able to fire two aimed shots at the speed dictated by the mover, I would rather see them fire one aimed shot and a "send it and hope" shot than no second shot at all. (just be careful of no-shoots!)
Most folks only get to practice movers DURING a match. How do you learn to time it, experience how much time you have for two shots, learn what you need to see, etc if you don't DO it?
I know we have different philosophies on this; we've had this chat before. That's ok. Hooray for freestyle!
Just real quick, a fun range-math exercise...
USPSA:
lets say you shoot 124 points in 18s (6.89HF) by only shooting 1 shot at at disapearing DT. If you whiff the second shot and add 0.15s, your HF only lowers to 6.83 (124/18.15). If you luck into the A, your HF becomes 7.11 (129/18.15), Based on Risk v Reward I'll take that shot every time, blindfolded. Note if you hit a D w/ minor scoring, the HF is... still 6.89 (125/18.15), or no net gain/loss.
IDPA:
ok, it's been a few years... a miss is what, 2.5 seconds? I won't waste time crunching #s on that risk v reward... 2 shots is a must, even if you have to wait on a swinger to come back around. I don't recall IDPA having a dis-appearing target exception for misses...
-rvb
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It's ok to do both, too.... track it to the ambush spot... maybe one shot while it's moving, another while it's "stopped." This way you aren't waiting on it to get to the ambush point. waiting is bad.
notice in the vid how long he waited from the time he was indexed on target to the point he put rounds out at the 'ambush' point (@1.15). Also notice how he shot how I describe above in the opening sequence when he shot them all at once obviously with more emphasis on speed....
[NOW I'm getting into the 'beyond basics' stuff]
'See what you need to see.'
-rvb
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