Low Light Practical Pistol Match?

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  • Jackson

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    Has anyone heard of a low-light practical pistol shooting match anywhere within reasonable driving distance from Indianapolis? I've heard of this kind of thing in other areas, but never participated in one. Something like a low-light IDPA or USPSA type match where you have to use a hand-held or gun-mounted light to search/identify targets, shoot, etc.

    A couple examples from other places:

    Friday Night Fights - 37 PSR Gun Club

    Low Light IDPA Match | HandgunWorld Podcast

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q4stcl6YWI

    Is there anything like this in Indiana?
     

    rhino

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    Has anyone heard of a low-light practical pistol shooting match anywhere within reasonable driving distance from Indianapolis? I've heard of this kind of thing in other areas, but never participated in one. Something like a low-light IDPA or USPSA type match where you have to use a hand-held or gun-mounted light to search/identify targets, shoot, etc.

    A couple examples from other places:

    Friday Night Fights - 37 PSR Gun Club

    Low Light IDPA Match | HandgunWorld Podcast

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q4stcl6YWI

    Is there anything like this in Indiana?

    They used to have a low light IDPA match at Wildcat every year, so it's not unprecedented.

    I think we could get them to allow it if some of the qualified club members there were willing to actually do the setup and operation of the match.

    I would not be averse to doing one at RileyCC if we could get permission and enough people to help.
     

    Jackson

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    Would there be divisions or categories based on light type? Weapon mounted seems to be an advantage over hand-held. I have no experience with these matches and I'm not sure what kind of rules they run.
     

    VERT

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    One the organizers was talking about setting up a low light steel challenge match at South Central this fall. I have not heard any definite or details yet
     

    rhino

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    Would there be divisions or categories based on light type? Weapon mounted seems to be an advantage over hand-held. I have no experience with these matches and I'm not sure what kind of rules they run.

    The last time we did it, it was decided at the last minute that people with weapon mounted lights had to start with them unmounted.

    In my opinion, it should be "run what you brung." This would be as much of a training/practice event as a it would be a competition (in my opinion), so learning what worked better in terms of time is a good thing. We could certainly keep track of what gear is used and categorize or use divisions if people demanded it.
     

    Coach

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    Do a match with 2 divisions. Handheld v/s WML. Keep the course of fire down to 10-15 rounds per go and let it go at that point.
     

    rhino

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    It would also have to be "blind" stages for the shooters. Having a walkthrough and rehearsing for each target placement would defeat much of the purpose.
     

    rvb

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    It would also have to be "blind" stages for the shooters. Having a walkthrough and rehearsing for each target placement would defeat much of the purpose.

    [shudder]

    I RO'd a stage like this in a shoot house at a match once. I was litterally afraid for my life. I actually had to grab and deflect two guns that otherwise would have been pointed at my gut/chest. I wasn't in RO mode I was in stay alive mode. wear a vest. I seriously would only do this if you have confidence the shooters have the experience to handle it. At the match I'm referring to we had a lot of folks who were new to both the competition thing and the using a flashlight thing. A bad combination. Blood WAS spilled (not from bullets thankfully, but slides cutting up arms/hands, people tripping over props, running into walls, etc). At least w/ a walkthrough they have some idea where they are going and they are less likely to get the idea to turn around and go back...

    [/shudder]

    I haven't shot a dark match in a while, it does sound fun. Used to go every spring to Norfolk, VA for their indoor IDPA state match. They'd do like 4-5 stages w/ the lights on, move some things around and do another 4-5 stages w/ the lights off.

    I remember one stage that instead of a start beep used a flash stobe in your eyes for the start signal. But at least we had some idea how the walls/targets were layed out; still had to "find" them...

    2c

    -rvb
     

    Jackson

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    If a guy loses control of his muzzle in a regular match wouldnt you DQ him? Seems in a situation like this you should DQ and remove unsafe shooters at the first sign of trouble.
    [shudder]

    I RO'd a stage like this in a shoot house at a match once. I was litterally afraid for my life. I actually had to grab and deflect two guns that otherwise would have been pointed at my gut/chest. I wasn't in RO mode I was in stay alive mode. wear a vest. I seriously would only do this if you have confidence the shooters have the experience to handle it. At the match I'm referring to we had a lot of folks who were new to both the competition thing and the using a flashlight thing. A bad combination. Blood WAS spilled (not from bullets thankfully, but slides cutting up arms/hands, people tripping over props, running into walls, etc). At least w/ a walkthrough they have some idea where they are going and they are less likely to get the idea to turn around and go back...

    [/shudder]

    I haven't shot a dark match in a while, it does sound fun. Used to go every spring to Norfolk, VA for their indoor IDPA state match. They'd do like 4-5 stages w/ the lights on, move some things around and do another 4-5 stages w/ the lights off.

    I remember one stage that instead of a start beep used a flash stobe in your eyes for the start signal. But at least we had some idea how the walls/targets were layed out; still had to "find" them...

    2c

    -rvb
     

    rhino

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    [shudder]

    I RO'd a stage like this in a shoot house at a match once. I was litterally afraid for my life. I actually had to grab and deflect two guns that otherwise would have been pointed at my gut/chest. I wasn't in RO mode I was in stay alive mode. wear a vest. I seriously would only do this if you have confidence the shooters have the experience to handle it. At the match I'm referring to we had a lot of folks who were new to both the competition thing and the using a flashlight thing. A bad combination. Blood WAS spilled (not from bullets thankfully, but slides cutting up arms/hands, people tripping over props, running into walls, etc). At least w/ a walkthrough they have some idea where they are going and they are less likely to get the idea to turn around and go back...

    [/shudder]

    I haven't shot a dark match in a while, it does sound fun. Used to go every spring to Norfolk, VA for their indoor IDPA state match. They'd do like 4-5 stages w/ the lights on, move some things around and do another 4-5 stages w/ the lights off.

    I remember one stage that instead of a start beep used a flash stobe in your eyes for the start signal. But at least we had some idea how the walls/targets were layed out; still had to "find" them...

    2c

    -rvb


    I acknowledge your points!

    I will also say that most of the problems occur because people become obsessed doing everything as fast as possible without sufficient regard for safety (in addition to the gun handling) or problem solving.

    I think an alternative to consider is to set a generous par time. If it absolutely must be a competition, find a way to score it on points. Make misses and especially hits on non-threats much bigger penalties than they are in USPSA or IDPA.

    Doing things in the dark is generally (supposed to be by necessity) much slower paced than the exact same actions in brightly lit conditions.
     

    rvb

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    If a guy loses control of his muzzle in a regular match wouldnt you DQ him? Seems in a situation like this you should DQ and remove unsafe shooters at the first sign of trouble.

    moot point if the first DQ'able offence is a gun pointed at your chest.

    Things go to **** very fast in the dark, esp w/ the shooter suddenly gets the idea they forgot to look somewhere and changes course.


    I acknowledge your points!

    I will also say that most of the problems occur because people become obsessed doing everything as fast as possible without sufficient regard for safety (in addition to the gun handling) or problem solving.

    I think an alternative to consider is to set a generous par time. If it absolutely must be a competition, find a way to score it on points. Make misses and especially hits on non-threats much bigger penalties than they are in USPSA or IDPA.

    Doing things in the dark is generally (supposed to be by necessity) much slower paced than the exact same actions in brightly lit conditions.

    The folks that were the scariest were the slowest. The folks used to run'n'gun had a pretty good feel for where downrange is and often times if they felt they forgot to look somewhere would vocalize (something like "backing up!"). The folks that took minutes to do the stage were the ones who were completely unpredictable....

    Again, it's more about confidence the shooters can handle the situation. Competition amps the adrenaline, so does shooting in the dark. It creates an easy opportunity for mistakes...

    Maybe consider the example I gave above (I typed all that for a reason...), shoot w/ the lights on first, maybe even still use flashlights to make sure people aren't doing something dangerous w/ their technique*, then move a couple things around and turn off the lights?

    -rvb

    *one poor woman had never used a flashlight and gun together.... she used that old-school harries technique which she probably picked up from TV, only she had her support/light wrist above her gun wrist and it got chewed to hell from the slide....
     
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    Jackson

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    I generally like to do my moving with the muzzle averted (down or up). Not good for super fast times, but great for not muzzling the bejesus out of everything I can't see in the dark.

    You make some great points though. I dont necessarily think low light has to mean pitch dark to have value. I am also not opposed to running lighted stages on the same general range set up so everyone knows which way is down.

    Or you could limit participitation to people with known skillsets.
     

    Friction

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    The last time we did it, it was decided at the last minute that people with weapon mounted lights had to start with them unmounted.

    Good point, maybe guys should have to do that with compensators as well, we could setup a little gun smithing station in front of the first target. )Note: I detect from your use of the words 'It was decided at the last minute" that you may have disapproved of the decision in which case I'm just screwing with you.)

    Having anyone mount a light to a handgun after the start is setting a bunch of folks up for a DQ for flagging themselves. Likewise, if the goal of the rest of the stage is to some how simulate "real life", which is rarely so dark you completely lose situational awareness anyway, mounting your light for time seems silly.
     

    Friction

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    There is virtually no way to construct a rage that would cause a complete loss of SA due to darkness based on the output of modern lights. 400+ Lumens on the gravel would illuminate an entire area enough to differentiate between shoot/no shoot targets and the general orientation of the range. The guys that try to be sneaky pete's and operate their way through a stage while only flashing their lights as they broke a corner would be the ones to look out for because they would be building momentum faster then they were building SA.

    The fun side of a night shoot is learning to generate a sight focused picture when a target is glaring back at you at the typical ranges where you would be focused on the sights only during the day. Likewise, during close engagements, you can learn to use the pattern of your light to index which makes nighttime hoser array's fun.

    In any case, I think the event worth the setup time, as long as some smart folks talk through the contingencies, rules and stage design prior to the event. If guys aren't sure about safety then I recommend running the first event using some fun classifiers that are stationary to build up peoples confidence and help ID any equipment/training issues. Running stages like 6 chickens, or that one that starts you from behind a bar would be easy to RO, easy to shoot with HH or WM lights, and the lack of movement would reduce the curve for those folks who haven't used a light out of necessity before.
     

    rvb

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    There is virtually no way to construct a ra[n]ge that would cause a complete loss of SA due to darkness based on the output of modern lights. 400+ Lumens on the gravel would illuminate an entire area enough ....

    Lights often get switched off during reloads. lights get dropped. Junk lights will break. Some folks will show up w/ junk lights not much better than keychain leds. Believe it or not, not everyone who shoots is a flashlight junky. If you have a half-ways complicated course w/ walls/rooms, some people will be in overlaod and disorient even w/ decent lights. In the ~120-150 shooters I RO'd at the match I'm discussing, I saw all of those things.

    If guys aren't sure about safety then I recommend running the first event using some fun classifiers ...

    Im not saying do stand and shoot, I just offering my recomendation against "blind" dark flashlight stages (heck, limit the walkthrough to 60 seconds or two minutes, don't allow airgunning, whatever). It's one thing if you're doing it as part of a class, or w/ a group of folks that your comfortable have the skill level and experience for it. It's another for a match open to general public (and something like this would draw from a different crowd beyond the usual uspsa/idpa crowd; I expect you'd see a lot of first time competitors, we did).

    Finally, from a "competition" stand point, blind stages are never equitable unless you can keep the rest of the competitors from seeing any part of what's going on (we only allowed the current shooter in the bay (a 360 bay) and only the shooter/RO reset).

    -rvb
     

    rhino

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    The folks that were the scariest were the slowest. The folks used to run'n'gun had a pretty good feel for where downrange is and often times if they felt they forgot to look somewhere would vocalize (something like "backing up!"). The folks that took minutes to do the stage were the ones who were completely unpredictable....

    Again, it's more about confidence the shooters can handle the situation. Competition amps the adrenaline, so does shooting in the dark. It creates an easy opportunity for mistakes...

    Maybe consider the example I gave above (I typed all that for a reason...), shoot w/ the lights on first, maybe even still use flashlights to make sure people aren't doing something dangerous w/ their technique*, then move a couple things around and turn off the lights?

    -rvb

    *one poor woman had never used a flashlight and gun together.... she used that old-school harries technique which she probably picked up from TV, only she had her support/light wrist above her gun wrist and it got chewed to hell from the slide....

    Agreed about unpredictable shooters. Perhaps we're also talking about different ideas here as well. I'm not going to invite people like that to participate. I'm not being intentionally elitist, but people who have never used a light and gun in low light would not be suitable candidates for this kind of activity.




    Good point, maybe guys should have to do that with compensators as well, we could setup a little gun smithing station in front of the first target. )Note: I detect from your use of the words 'It was decided at the last minute" that you may have disapproved of the decision in which case I'm just screwing with you.)

    Having anyone mount a light to a handgun after the start is setting a bunch of folks up for a DQ for flagging themselves. Likewise, if the goal of the rest of the stage is to some how simulate "real life", which is rarely so dark you completely lose situational awareness anyway, mounting your light for time seems silly.

    Yes, I disapproved (and I did not have a weapon-mounted light, so it didn't affect me other than safety). However it was not my match and the people running it did the best they could at the time.

    I definitely agree mounting a light on a pistol in low light while on the clock is not a great idea. The rules for USPSA and IDPA do not adequately address any of this, but there is no reason why they should.

    I'm a "you brought it, you shoot it" kind of guy. That goes both for people who bring things that don't work as well as those who bring gear that creates a distinct advantage for them.



    There is virtually no way to construct a rage that would cause a complete loss of SA due to darkness based on the output of modern lights. 400+ Lumens on the gravel would illuminate an entire area enough to differentiate between shoot/no shoot targets and the general orientation of the range. The guys that try to be sneaky pete's and operate their way through a stage while only flashing their lights as they broke a corner would be the ones to look out for because they would be building momentum faster then they were building SA.

    The fun side of a night shoot is learning to generate a sight focused picture when a target is glaring back at you at the typical ranges where you would be focused on the sights only during the day. Likewise, during close engagements, you can learn to use the pattern of your light to index which makes nighttime hoser array's fun.

    In any case, I think the event worth the setup time, as long as some smart folks talk through the contingencies, rules and stage design prior to the event. If guys aren't sure about safety then I recommend running the first event using some fun classifiers that are stationary to build up peoples confidence and help ID any equipment/training issues. Running stages like 6 chickens, or that one that starts you from behind a bar would be easy to RO, easy to shoot with HH or WM lights, and the lack of movement would reduce the curve for those folks who haven't used a light out of necessity before.

    That's not a bad idea. I'd lean more toward inviting people who have demonstrated they have the necessary fundamentals necessary to negotiate the course of fire safely.


    Lights often get switched off during reloads. lights get dropped. Junk lights will break. Some folks will show up w/ junk lights not much better than keychain leds. Believe it or not, not everyone who shoots is a flashlight junky. If you have a half-ways complicated course w/ walls/rooms, some people will be in overlaod and disorient even w/ decent lights. In the ~120-150 shooters I RO'd at the match I'm discussing, I saw all of those things.



    Im not saying do stand and shoot, I just offering my recomendation against "blind" dark flashlight stages (heck, limit the walkthrough to 60 seconds or two minutes, don't allow airgunning, whatever). It's one thing if you're doing it as part of a class, or w/ a group of folks that your comfortable have the skill level and experience for it. It's another for a match open to general public (and something like this would draw from a different crowd beyond the usual uspsa/idpa crowd; I expect you'd see a lot of first time competitors, we did).

    Finally, from a "competition" stand point, blind stages are never equitable unless you can keep the rest of the competitors from seeing any part of what's going on (we only allowed the current shooter in the bay (a 360 bay) and only the shooter/RO reset).

    -rvb

    More evidence supporting that such an event should be by invitation with very clear guidelines for gear as well.

    More importantly, the goals and intent of any such event should be determined well in advance. If it's going to be USPSA/IDPA in the dark with lights, it's a completely different beast than what I would want to do. I also just realized we're in the shooting sports forum! I thought we were in the tactics and training forum when I was responding. Heck, Jackson started the topic! It has to be in the training forum! Heh!
     
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