USPSA rulebook discussion

[Tanfodude]

Updated after new scenarios encountered. 8/7/16

As I have found out, certain scenarios have come up where the rule has been subject to different interpretations and different RO's have different opinions about things, including instructors. Here are the list of things I heard from different people and being discussed.

(Please no bashing here as this is a learning thread)

Faulting - During the recent class I attended, if a shooter is standing on the fault line, he is considered outside the shooting area/box per that instructor as he interpreted it, Coach contradicted it during the class that as long as you're not touching the ground outside that line, you're still inside the shooting area/box. And I think majority of us agreed on Coach's argument.

Jumping from inside the shooting area to outside while still firing. - If the shooter is up in the air while shooting the target, even if the shooter is already outside the fault line but hasn't touched the ground yet, he is still considered inside the shooting area. I have heard different interpretations of this too.

Starting position - This is recently clarified Gary Johnson. And this is also the most common misinterpretation IMO as I have seen/heard different RO's interpretation about this. Our start position (chapter 8.2.2) ALWAYS defaults to appendix E3 of the rulebook even if the stage briefing says toes on marks/heels on marks, since the latter is describing the starting location, not position. I've recently seen, (even in level II matches) that this rule isn't enforced. Unless specified from written stage briefing (facing up range, hand on marks/table/above shoulders/relax at sides ect....), it always defaults to appendix E3.

Hammer position for production guns - The hammer down position is only at the start position/Handgun Ready Conditions 8.1. After the start beep, the shooter is legal to pull the hammer back for SA first shot during draw. Heard discussion about this too that it is illegal.

Securing the holster belt - Chapter 5.2.3, I've heard people say that you have to have at least 3 belt loops to be legal. It is not the case. The wording specifically says "The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. The belt may be removed between courses of fire." The key word is "or". As long as your belt is secured that when you draw or pull mags out of the pouches, your belt doesn't move up/down significantly.

Scoring on perforation/borders - Another one I've heard people say that the hole has to break/cross the perf. Per rulebook 9.5.2, the edge of the diameter only has to touch the scoring line.

The legality of using a back up gun - per 5.1.7. There's been different talks I've heard about this where you have to have exactly the same gun or platform as the main gun.
If you're planning of using the back up gun, include that gun in the chrono stage and pass the inspection. Once it passes for the division you're shooting, it doesn't matter what the gun's model/maker is as long as it passes for that division. (e.g. for production, main gun is hammer fired, back up is striker fired).




I posted these as to encouraged discussion on these and other things that are prone to misinterpretation. I hope that this will serve to help us understand the game.

 

[romack991]

Faulting - During the recent class I attended, if a shooter is standing on the fault line, he is considered outside the shooting area/box per that instructor as he interpreted it, Coach contradicted it during the class that as long as you're not touching the ground outside that line, you're still inside the shooting area/box. And I think majority of us agreed on Coach's argument.

Coach is correct.

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting, providing doing so does not violate (2.2.1.5 or 3.2.6)Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground)leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

Jumping from inside the shooting area to outside while still firing. - If the shooter is up in the air while shooting the target, even if the shooter is already outside the fault line but hasn't touched the ground yet, he is still considered inside the shooting area. I have heard different interpretations of this too.

See above.

Starting position - This is recently clarified Gary Johnson. And this is also the most common misinterpretation IMO as I have seen/heard different RO's interpretation about this. Our start position (chapter 8.2.2) ALWAYS defaults to appendix E3 of the rulebook even if the stage briefing says toes on marks/heels on marks. I've recently seen, (even in level II matches) that this rule isn't enforced.

Written stage briefing specifies start position. If WSB does not define, then it defaults to the below. I can see where may be currently enforced incorrectly. It reads as if the WSB just states heels on marks, the competitor must be facing downrange. I would say at most matches, if they do not define downrange, or uprange, it is assumed you can be facing anywhere.

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

Hammer position for production guns - The hammer down position is only at the start position/Handgun Ready Conditions 8.1. After the start beep, the shooter is legal to pull the hammer back for SA first shot during draw. Heard discussion about this too that it is illegal.

Where in the rule book does it say that you can not manually cock the hammer once out of the holster? It only specifies the ready condition. Once the pistol is out of the holster, the competitor can do what they want. (Doesn't mean its not a dumb idea though.)

Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal,

Securing the holster belt - Chapter 5.2.3, I've heard people say that you have to have at least 3 belt loops to be legal. It is not the case. The wording specifically says "The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. The belt may be removed between courses of fire." The key word is "or". As long as your belt is secured that when you draw or pull mags out of the pouches, your belt doesn't move up/down significantly.

Yes, except they don't use the word significantly.

Securely Fixed (belt) ........The belt doesn't move when either the gun or a magazine is drawn from it without using both hands.

Scoring on perforation/borders - Another one I've heard people say that the hole has to break/cross the perf. Per rulebook 9.5.2, the edge of the diameter only has to touch the scoring line.

Correct

 

[Tanfodude]

Good points Tim. As for the belt, it was my interpretation since the belt does move (including the pants) on some shooters I've observed, just not significantly but you're correct. Today, I've seen the belt in loops moved up the pants in drawing, lol.

As for the starting position, you're right about how it is mostly interpreted. I've seen some their hands above the grip (not touching the gun) on starting position when the WSB is toes on marks/heels on marks. But it's not supposed to be that way since it only describes the starting location, not position. If your starting position is described (hands in surrender position/above shoulders ect) I think that's where you can modify where you face downrange since it doesn't fall on the default start position description.

 

[Coach]

The latest "movement" in USPSA has been to more fully things like start position, and I think it is the wrong way to go. There seems to be a movement under way to control the gaming. Some people are really not happy about the gaming of say start positions. Most of the time the start position does not matter and people enjoy gaming. I say let them game. If you want a particular start position put some marks for hands and toes and be done with it.

If I stand on the box for an advantage in shooting around a barricaide it will be lost if I muff the draw or fail to click the safety off, or if I fall off the box. If nit picky starting positions test anything it is not a shooting skill that it tests.

RO interpretations should be fully supported by a rule.

 

[rvb]

As I have found out, certain scenarios have come up where the rule has been subject to different interpretations and different RO's have different opinions about things, including instructors. Here are the list of things I heard from different people and being discussed.

(Please no bashing here as this is a learning thread)

Faulting - During the recent class I attended, if a shooter is standing on the fault line, he is considered outside the shooting area/box per that instructor as he interpreted it, Coach contradicted it during the class that as long as you're not touching the ground outside that line, you're still inside the shooting area/box. And I think majority of us agreed on Coach's argument.

Coach is correct.
And you CAN step on / lean on objects outside the shooting area IF they are touching the fault line. This is an important nuance for RO's to know as well as setup crews. can a shooter's hands touch the wall as they lean around? Depends if it's touching the fault line (not an issue if a wall IS part of the fault line, but if it's a vision barrier outside of the fault line). Shooters wanting to avoid penalties will work hard not to touch it, while others who either don't know or realize the RO doesn't know can gain an advantage by supporting on a prop. We had to adjust a stage at the SS/Prod match to avoid this issue as a support for a wall was touching the faultline and while not likely, had a shooter leaned out on it, it would have made a dangerous situation due to the proximity of steel.

Jumping from inside the shooting area to outside while still firing.

- If the shooter is up in the air while shooting the target, even if the shooter is already outside the fault line but hasn't touched the ground yet, he is still considered inside the shooting area. I have heard different interpretations of this too.

The book only defines out, not in. So I usually figure if you haven't touched outside, you're still in. The odd one is the reverse, jumping back in. IMO, you have go airborne from a legal position (otherwise you could stand way outside the fault line and just keep jumping/shooting).

Starting position

- This is recently clarified Gary Johnson. And this is also the most common misinterpretation IMO as I have seen/heard different RO's interpretation about this. Our start position (chapter 8.2.2) ALWAYS defaults to appendix E3 of the rulebook even if the stage briefing says toes on marks/heels on marks, since the latter is describing the starting location, not position. I've recently seen, (even in level II matches) that this rule isn't enforced. Unless specified from written stage briefing (facing up range, hand on marks/table/above shoulders ect....), it always defaults to appendix E3.

IMO, depends how it's written in the WSB. If I write "Start Position is Toes touching marks," I have just defined a start position that supersedes the default start position. You may face uprange, downrange, have hands at surrender or relaxed. I don't care. so long as the WSB is satisfied. If I just say something like "shooter must begin with toes touching marks," then the RO should use the default position.

Hammer position for production guns

- The hammer down position is only at the start position/Handgun Ready Conditions 8.1. After the start beep, the shooter is legal to pull the hammer back for SA first shot during draw. Heard discussion about this too that it is illegal.

Not illegal. [just a poor technique]
Bigger issue for ROs to watch is hammer down position at Make Ready. (either fully down / not at half cock if gun does not have a decocker, or wherever the decocker puts it if the gun has a decocker).

Scoring on perforation/borders

- Another one I've heard people say that the hole has to break/cross the perf. Per rulebook 9.5.2, the edge of the diameter only has to touch

the scoring line.

yes. and use your overlays. Too many people think it matters what the grease ring does. The bullet diameter is almost always larger than the grease ring.

-rvb

edit: I don't know what's up with all these extra quote tags... I keep deleting them and they keep coming back...

 

[Grelber]

From the cheap seats, it seems like their is not really any problem with the rules but their is opportunity for better communication.

The worst form of communication I know of is word of mouth and the second worst form is written. If you look at the items in the original post, it is hard to figure out why you can't call up a USPSA approved u-tube video that shows all that stuff, all it would take is an hours time with the bona-fide rules guru and some ying yang with a cell phone.

Sorry for the side track - now back to your regular program.

 

[rvb]

From the cheap seats, it seems like their is not really any problem with the rules but their is opportunity for better communication.

The worst form of communication I know of is word of mouth and the second worst form is written. If you look at the items in the original post, it is hard to figure out why you can't call up a USPSA approved u-tube video that shows all that stuff, all it would take is an hours time with the bona-fide rules guru and some ying yang with a cell phone.

Sorry for the side track - now back to your regular program.

IMO, that's the worst method. And we have that now to some degree. The rulebook and the NROI rulings on the webpage are the ONLY official places for rules. However, too many times the "guru" (the Director of NROI) goes on a forum or even the Front Sight mag and give his 2c. Sometimes that's contrary to the actual rules. It becomes an opinion people go by, and suddenly on the range, people "know" something is right because they read it in FS or on Enos, but can't back it up in the rules. We don't need magazines or forums or youtube or a conglomeration of all those. We need a rulebook. one place to turn to find an answer. and we have to be able to find that answer on a range in BFE w/ no cell/internet service.

An exact example eludes me at the moment, but I know I've seen it over the years...

-rvb

 

[Grelber]

IMO, that's the worst method. And we have that now to some degree. The rulebook and the NROI rulings on the webpage are the ONLY official places for rules. However, too many times the "guru" (the Director of NROI) goes on a forum or even the Front Sight mag and give his 2c. Sometimes that's contrary to the actual rules. It becomes an opinion people go by, and suddenly on the range, people "know" something is right because they read it in FS or on Enos, but can't back it up in the rules. We don't need magazines or forums or youtube or a conglomeration of all those. We need a rulebook. one place to turn to find an answer. and we have to be able to find that answer on a range in BFE w/ no cell/internet service.

An exact example eludes me at the moment, but I know I've seen it over the years...

-rvb

Ok, but a little bit of apples and oranges.

Bad info is bad. Pictures or more modern means with good explanation of good info can be good. The need for electronics at a range is bad. Just because there is info to help you understand the book does not mean you have to carry it with you (unless the book verbiage is really really bad).

 

[rvb]

Ok, but a little bit of apples and oranges.

Bad info is bad. Pictures or more modern means with good explanation of good info can be good. The need for electronics at a range is bad. Just because there is info to help you understand the book does not mean you have to carry it with you (unless the book verbiage is really really bad).

True, but it's always the rules with the poor wording that already have confusion and inconsistent officiating that causes someone to ask the question of NROI, then if NROI just writes something in FS or a forum or youtube then you still have confusion on match day....

-rvb

 

[romack991]

The latest "movement" in USPSA has been to more fully things like start position, and I think it is the wrong way to go. There seems to be a movement under way to control the gaming. Some people are really not happy about the gaming of say start positions. Most of the time the start position does not matter and people enjoy gaming. I say let them game. If you want a particular start position put some marks for hands and toes and be done with it.

This. Let the competitor decided how to shoot it. That's half the fun of USPSA. I stopped going to a club because on the match director insisted on making everyone shoot the stage how he wanted it to be shot. If you can find a loophole in a stage design and it does not create any safety issues, good on you. The irony is half the gaming you see probably hurts the shooter more than it helps.

 

[Tanfodude]

Good valid points from everyone and I agree about the gaming part of it. And based on rvb's, that's what I meant about different opinions about the start position. Our problem here is how can we have a uniform opinion about things to decrease all these "I've done this at this place", "this is what we've been doing for years", or "this is what the rule in the book says" arguments.

How can we all have a common agreement in start position that we can apply on major matches?

 

[sv40sw45]

10 years ago you never had a Toes on marks or heels on marks hands here or there start positon. It was freestyle! Standing in the shooting area. Beep!!!! shoot the stage. People got the idea they could SLOW down the better shooters if they started making rules to do so.
How much do you gain by facing a target set to your right or left from facing down range???? .001 seconds maybe.

 

[rvb]

I've gone to the book and re-read it a half dozen times.

Part of the problem is Facing down range never used to be defined until the red book. Folks accepted arms at sides, and just so long as they were looking somewhere "downrange" (w/in the 180) they got the beep. It seems I'm guilty of some inertia thinking here. Like coach said, HQ killed some freestyle here. Few, incl me, have gotten used to defaulting to the new "facing downrange." oops... a case of "how we've always done it." It seems most course designers write Facing Downrange in the WSB if that's really what they really want.

Another part of the problem is poor rules writing. You could (should?) read it as two rules w/in 8.2.2. Competitor Ready Condition met when 1) The competitor assumes the Start Pos as defined in the WSB and 2) the competitor is standing erect (woohoo!), facing DR, etc unless specifically told to do otherwise. They overload the term Start Position by applying it to both.

So now I'm not sure. after re-reading it seems "facing downrange" may be right, even if WSB says something simple like " Start Position: toes on marks." If that's the case, as a course designer, how would I write freestyle back into the course if I don't care where your face points???

-rvb

 

[Tanfodude]

I'm all for freestyle but then I get called out for it. Hence where the discussion begins. Gary Johnson said that toes/heels on marks is just a starting location, not position, hence the default to appendix e3.

Max, I agree, just an example last prodssrev match, one shooter had his hand hovering over the grip as starting position while facing his first target. Now that's gaming.

I've gone to the book and re-read it a half dozen times.

Part of the problem is Facing down range never used to be defined until the red book. Folks accepted arms at sides, and just so long as they were looking somewhere "downrange" (w/in the 180) they got the beep. I may be guilty of some inertia thinking here. Like coach said, HQ killed some freestyle here. Few, incl me, have gotten used to defaulting to the new "facing downrange." oops... a case of "how we've always done it." It seems most course designers write Facing Downrange in the WSB if that's really what they really want.

Another part of the problem is poor rules writing. You could (should?) read it as two rules w/in 8.2.2. Competitor Ready Condition met when 1) The competitor assumes the Start Pos as defined in the WSB and 2) the competitor is standing erect (woohoo!), facing DR, etc unless specifically told to do otherwise. They overload the term Start Position by applying it to both.

So now I'm not sure. after re-reading it seems "facing downrange" may be right, even if WSB says something simple like " Start Position: toes on marks." If that's the case, as a course designer, how would I write freestyle back into the course if I don't care where your face points???

-rvb

 

[cschwanz]

So now I'm not sure. after re-reading it seems "facing downrange" may be right, even if WSB says something simple like " Start Position: toes on marks." If that's the case, as a course designer, how would I write freestyle back into the course if I don't care where your face points???

-rvb

"Start position: Body may be oriented as the shooter deems necessary, but toes must touch marks with hands relaxed at sides." Would fit the bill, but seems pretty dumb to have to say all that, lol

 

[rvb]

I'm all for freestyle but then I get called out for it. Hence where the discussion begins. Gary Johnson said that toes/heels on marks is just a starting location, not position, hence the default to appendix e3.

hmm...
from Apx A3.

Start position ....................The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the "Start signal".

So "start position" has 3 parts:

Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire.
Shooting position .............The physical presentation of a person’s body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone).
Stance ..............................The physical presentation of a person’s limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.).

If WSB only specifies Location (e.g. "Start Position: Toes on marks"), I guess it makes sense 8.2.2 defaults the shooting position and stance, incl "facing downrange."

If I want to avoid reshoots and nit-picking over "facing downrange," It seems a good/short example WSB might be "Start Position: standing with [toes/heels/anywhere/etc], hands relaxed at sides." Then all 3 are otherwise specified. That gets us back where we were before the "facing downrange" definition was added...

-rvb

 

[Tanfodude]

^True.

 

[Grelber]

As long as the brain trust is active.

If the rules were to be followed to the letter, would the score keeper be required to be there observing the shooter whenever the timer goes off (rather than finishing up showing the last shooter their scores for example) , and not allowed to score ahead?

 

[Tanfodude]

As long as the brain trust is active.

If the rules were to be followed to the letter, would the score keeper be required to be there observing the shooter whenever the timer goes off (rather than finishing up showing the last shooter their scores for example) , and not allowed to score ahead?

Rulebook 9.6.2. As long as the competitors are informed and there are delegates, it's legal.

 

[rvb]

I don't know that you'll find that answer in the book. There is no "score keeper." There are just ROs. RO duties include safety, range commands, monitoring compliance to the WSB, AND calling and recording time/hits. We usually divide these jobs between the two ROs.

I personally dont don't care for the "score keeper" scoring targets. There's time for that when the shooting is over. I'd rather they also do the other RO tasks such as watch for safety violations, penalties, etc. and I've seen too many reshoots given because either the pasters or the RO with the timer thought the score keeper recorded a target when they didn't. As a shooter I like to see my hits. While shooting is happening, a delegate really shouldn't be on the course to confirm the scores (yes it's legal, but most courses aren't that long to prevent a back-up from getting scary...

2c

-rvb