Could you dq folks at every match for trigger calls ?

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  • Grelber

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    Just from holding the timer a wee bit at USPSA matches (3 different locations so it is not a that club thing) it seems like some of the folks pretty routinely do reloads with the trigger finger inside the trigger guard and/or have the finger inside the guard while they are running from point A to point B.

    From memory, I've seen a couple folks dq'd for an a.d. during reload but I can not remember seeing or hearing about a dq for trigger finger location and I'm not sure I remember even hearing somebody yell a warning.

    Have not been through the training, so perhaps I am just looking at things wrong?
     
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    JMitch

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    The short answer is yes they could be DQ. In the rule book section 10.5.8-10 cover most of what you were asking about. Section 8.4 and 8.5 have a few other details.
     

    JMitch

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    Since I am a new RO I always carry a rule book in my range bag but I also have it on my phone. The search function on a phone or tablet are a great help when I don't know something.
     

    riverman67

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    Yes
    But I only do that if I am 100% certain that the infraction occurred. I have to see the finger in the trigger guard during a reload, for example. It is sometimes difficult to tell if the finger is "in" the trigger guard or laying on the outside of it, on the other side of the gun.
    The finger in the trigger guard while moving is an even more difficult call in my opinion because we are allowed to shoot on the move. If the gun is obviously not pointing in the general direction of a target then a dq it is.
    But be 100% sure that persons day is over.
     

    gregkl

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    My brother got dq'd for finger on the trigger . The match he was at gave him a warning on the first infraction. The second time he did it they dq'd him. He is older military and when he got into gaming, it took that match to finally get it in his head to keep his finger out of the trigger guard.

    I would handle it like riverman67 describes. I don't want to unnecessarily end someone's day but safety come first. Always.

    Oh, and I hear RO's saying "finger" often at matches. Especially during reloads. I think good RO's are watching closely helping shooters(especially new ones) establish good habits without being to quick to hit the DQ button.
     

    riverman67

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    My number one rule is .....don't be a dick. I fall short of that one quite often.
    Most of the people shooting uspsa are doing it because its fun. Nothing sucks the fun out of a match faster than range Nazi's. Well, range lawyers are a close second.
    That being said, we are running around with loaded guns, safety has to come first. I just try to make damn sure that I'm right before I ruin someone's day with the judgment calls we're talking about here.
    Most of the time shooters DQ themselves and all the RO has to do is stop them.
     

    downrange72

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    I often say finger if I'm not sure. Again, you have to be 100% certain. I knew an old military guy that looked like his finger was in from the wrong side.of the gun but if you were on his strong side you could see.he pulled it out and just didn't index it on the side like many of us do.
     

    Coach

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    Any call that an RO makes should be a call that he or she is 100% certain. 99% is not acceptable. If the finger is in there and you know it. DQ, there is no warning. If you are pretty sure then FINGER is the thing to yell. If you think they were in the trigger guard tell them after the range is clear command is given. But if you know it is in there make the call. We do not have to compromise safety in order to have fun, and we should not. The rules are clear the penalty severe.

    The other side of the coin is the shooter has complete control of the situation. If my finger is not only outside of the trigger guard but up on the slide/frame in a great register position that removes any judgement or guess work by the RO and the shooter protects himself from a overzealous RO. When safety violations happen they are obvious. I don't have to be in a good stance staring right at the gun looking for it. Just pay attention and call what you see. Call it the same for everyone all the time.
     

    Dog1

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    My number one rule is .....don't be a dick. I fall short of that one quite often.
    Most of the people shooting uspsa are doing it because its fun. Nothing sucks the fun out of a match faster than range Nazi's. Well, range lawyers are a close second.
    That being said, we are running around with loaded guns, safety has to come first. I just try to make damn sure that I'm right before I ruin someone's day with the judgment calls we're talking about here.
    Most of the time shooters DQ themselves and all the RO has to do is stop them.


    Any call that an RO makes should be a call that he or she is 100% certain. 99% is not acceptable. If the finger is in there and you know it. DQ, there is no warning. If you are pretty sure then FINGER is the thing to yell. If you think they were in the trigger guard tell them after the range is clear command is given. But if you know it is in there make the call. We do not have to compromise safety in order to have fun, and we should not. The rules are clear the penalty severe.

    The other side of the coin is the shooter has complete control of the situation. If my finger is not only outside of the trigger guard but up on the slide/frame in a great register position that removes any judgement or guess work by the RO and the shooter protects himself from a overzealous RO. When safety violations happen they are obvious. I don't have to be in a good stance staring right at the gun looking for it. Just pay attention and call what you see. Call it the same for everyone all the time.

    Both of these posts are sound advice.
     

    Tanfodude

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    I guess I've slacked off on this. I've seen them do it but on the next array, they consciously corrected so at last shot fired, I just remind them to watch the finger in trigger.
     

    ArmyADub

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    What about this rule?

    8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The handgun must be pointed in a safe direction.


    Particularly the point about "safety should be engaged" I don't know anyone (on a 1911-style handgun) that engages the thumb safety while moving? Finger outside the trigger guard, yes. Where is the line drawn between full-hustle movement (using arms to pump), and bringing the gun up to aim, settle the sights, and engage a target - all while moving? For example, if my hands are still together but gun isn't at eye-sight height...?
     

    cschwanz

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    "should" doesn't mean must. I used to flick my safety on all the time when I'd go to move a long distance. Still do once in awhile and it always confuses me haha.

    As for fingers in the trigger, as said, if you are 100% sure it was there then its a DQ. If im uncertain of it, Ill let it go but keep a closer eye the rest of the stage then say something to the shooter afterward like "Hey, your finger looked pretty close on that 1st reload, but i couldnt tell if it was fully in there so i didnt stop you. But try to make certain your finger is all the way out, cool?"
     

    Bosshoss

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    Finger in the trigger guard is a tough one to call. Some shooters don't put their finger along side the gun but keep it curled and the tip of the finger just barely outside the trigger guard. If you can't see the tip of the finger sticking out the other side of the trigger guard you can't really be 100% sure.
    This rule is full of holes IMO(pun intended:))
    I see open and limited shooters move through a course of fire all the time and never take their finger out of the trigger guard. Their gun is up and both hands on it the whole time and is pointed in the general direction of the targets.
    We have all seen shooters come into a position to shoot a target with their finger in the trigger guard. When can you put your finger back on the trigger? 1, 2, 3, 4 steps before coming into position?
    We all have shot targets while moving with our finger in the trigger guard.
    Reloads are the same way. What defines a reload? When does it start and when does it end? I have had shooters drop a mag and while going for another one see a miss and take a one handed shot while bringing mag up to gun. Finger in trigger guard while reloading? I have had shooters have the gun go off while seating the mag. The round didn't hit within 10 feet of them or go over the backstop and a couple have actually hit a target. Finger in the trigger guard on reload?
    Personally when I RO I tend to watch the shooter over their right shoulder so I can and probably do miss seeing the finger in the trigger guard sometimes but have no problem yelling finger to remind shooters that they look like they have their finger in the trigger guard. I especially do this for new shooters or shooters I don't know. Some I will give a reminder after unload and show clear.
    Since there is no definition of when you are engaging a target or movement in the rule book maybe no finger in the trigger guard should be suggested just like putting your safety on when moving.:dunno:

    The finger in the trigger guard is the most subjective of all the USPSA DQ calls. Shooter breaks 180 usually several others see it. Finger in trigger guard is usually only seen by the RO.
     

    Tanfodude

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    I found out that I can actually see the trigger finger inside the trigger guard during reloads/movements better if I'm standing on the opposite side of the dominant hand of the shooter.
     

    riverman67

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    I found out that I can actually see the trigger finger inside the trigger guard during reloads/movements better if I'm standing on the opposite side of the dominant hand of the shooter.

    As stated above.
    It sometimes looks like the finger might be in there and it isn't , particularly from the off hand side of the gun. It is a tough call to make sometimes.
    I have old eyes and my depth perception isn't the best at speed. I tend to err on the side of the shooter, but that's me. You are younger than I am and I'm sure that you see better.
    If you see it, call it, just be 100% sure. The shooter has no way to argue this call and that is as it should be.
     

    bwframe

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    I warn people after "the range is clear" command if there is doubt. Shooters very often attempt to show a clearer register when asked to.

    It is a very tough call to make on seasoned competitors moving quickly.
     

    cakelly1962

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    That's why shooters are supposed to be ran with 2 RO's. One on each side of said shooter. That very rarely ever gets done. Local matches we try and speed things up by scoring while shooting. Good and bad points either way. When I RO Major matches I always try and have 2 RO's watching the shooter.
     

    racegunz

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    I can tell you like others have said this is a very tough thing to see for certain, I personally have watched very closely since Caleb got DQ'd for it, I honestly think it looks like most of the shooters have their finger in there when reloading but I am fairly certain in reality they do not. I will not call it unless there's an AD but that's me. I almost always flick my safety on when moving more than a few steps by the way, easy habit to start doesn't slow me down at all.
     
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