USPSA Rules: You make the call

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  • Coach

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    Major match. Stage is 22 rounds comstock requiring three positions to shoot the stage. One position is low under a wall. There is no fault line in this position. Most shooter squatted or knelt on one knee.

    Someone asked during the stage briefing about penalties for faulting the non existent line. The CRO responded that toes or feet under the wall a little bit would be no penalty but if we got too far under there would be a penalty. The shooter asked how we could receive a penalty for faulting a line that was not there. The rangemaster already ruled that it could be done was the response.

    My video below shows the stage. I am sort of shooting it prone.

    What do you all say?
     

    Coach

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    [video=youtube;qHcU13QzxDU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHcU13QzxDU[/video]
     

    GBuck

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    ^Agreed. Depending on how many shooters had been through the stage, add a fault line or toss the stage. Can't be consistent on what is "too far" under the wall.
     

    rhino

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    1. Poor stage design.
    2. If the rangemaster really "ruled" on it and said anything other than "you can't assess any penalty" then that person should re-take the Level I RO class.
    3. Why the hell didn't they just add a fault line if they recognized an issue with the poorly designed stage and had the RM "rule" on it? That's lazy beyond even my laziness.
     

    downrange72

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    1. Poor stage design.
    2. If the rangemaster really "ruled" on it and said anything other than "you can't assess any penalty" then that person should re-take the Level I RO class.
    3. Why the hell didn't they just add a fault line if they recognized an issue with the poorly designed stage and had the RM "rule" on it? That's lazy beyond even my laziness.

    Changes the stage. It would have to be thrown out.

    Who was the competitor?
     

    Coach

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    Can the Range master make such a ruling with the support of a rule in the book?

    The CRO acted as though he would be willing to assess penalties. Maybe it was a bluff. I was not assessed any penalties so I did not get to arbitration.
     

    rhino

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    Changes the stage. It would have to be thrown out.

    Who was the competitor?

    The fault line should have gone in before anyone shot it. Given that, removing the stage is acceptable, whereas penalizing shooters for violating rules that don't exist is not.


    I have a history of wanting to throat punch that RO anyway

    If I have not yet done so, someday I shall tell you the story about the Single Stack Classic Jacket.



    Can the Range master make such a ruling with the support of a rule in the book?

    The CRO acted as though he would be willing to assess penalties. Maybe it was a bluff. I was not assessed any penalties so I did not get to arbitration.

    Other than ruling that there is no rule to penalize someone in that situation and that the CRO/ROs on that stage can't assess penalties for faulting a non-existent fault line, I say, "No."

    But . . . it was Ohio.
     
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    Coach

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    Other than ruling that there is no rule to penalize someone in that situation and that the CRO/ROs on that stage can't assess penalties for faulting a non-existent fault line, I say, "No."

    But . . . it was Ohio.

    It is hard to take someone serious as a match official when they do these sort of things. This is something that should not have made it to the match. Then when the first person questioned it they should have fixed the problem with a fault line or stated that no penalties would be assessed.

    I enjoy the Buckeye Blast and have for several years, but I have seen them do things that were not safe or supported by the rule book.
     

    T.Lex

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    Haven't participated in this kind of event (would love to when I have time), but rules are interesting to me. So, I read these "you make the call" threads with fascination.

    As stated above, and it looks like the consensus, someone should've had a line, since it does not appear difficult to do.

    But even having said that, these stages are timed, right? It seems like there's a self-regulating aspect to this: going further under the barrier would be physically tricky while safely handling a pistol, and coming back under would be tricky, too. In other words, would not the time delay in search of a closer proximity be sufficient of a penalty to make this a zero sum situation?

    Its basically a game theory analysis. If someone pushed the edge of the envelope too far one way, there's a downside tradeoff coming back the other way.
     

    Coach

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    Haven't participated in this kind of event (would love to when I have time), but rules are interesting to me. So, I read these "you make the call" threads with fascination.

    As stated above, and it looks like the consensus, someone should've had a line, since it does not appear difficult to do.

    But even having said that, these stages are timed, right? It seems like there's a self-regulating aspect to this: going further under the barrier would be physically tricky while safely handling a pistol, and coming back under would be tricky, too. In other words, would not the time delay in search of a closer proximity be sufficient of a penalty to make this a zero sum situation?

    Its basically a game theory analysis. If someone pushed the edge of the envelope too far one way, there's a downside tradeoff coming back the other way.
    There is logic to what your theory is. However, in regards to vision barriers and fault lines. If I fault the line I have an easier shooting position or can see more targets from a position. So there is an advantage of faulting a line many times. That is the reason we go to the trouble of putting the lines down in the first place. The other part is in this sport the line is supposed to be raised so that it can be felt by the shooter so they know where they are. Painted lines are not permitted because you cannot feel the fault line in that case. No fault line is just stupid or lazy or both.
     

    downrange72

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    I heard downrange72 doesn't like the rulebook, it's funsponge he said.
    No. You are the fun sponge.

    Coach posts these to get me fired up

    that CRO is dumb enough to tick off the wrong person and it won't be pretty. I thought Sunday was going to be that day for a second. Though I've seen the temper worse, I believe that guy was willing to take it to the next level :D
     

    Tanfodude

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    No. You are the fun sponge.

    Coach posts these to get me fired up

    that CRO is dumb enough to tick off the wrong person and it won't be pretty. I thought Sunday was going to be that day for a second. Though I've seen the temper worse, I believe that guy was willing to take it to the next level :D

    LOL. I am the fun sponge? You're barking the wrong tree mate. If I was a fun sponge, I would have reacted to your mag in your gun before make ready.

    And me posting the rulebook discussion and trying to be consistent is just to clear confusion. Who to blame how these all started? Experienced ROs spreading misinformation when I was a newbie.
     
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