IDPA Flagrant Penalty-Failure to Engage

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  • yogiibare

    Plinker
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    Jul 9, 2017
    10
    3
    Northside of Indy
    I just got back from having a great time at a local IDPA club match, and a shooter was given a flagrant penalty based on rule 5.2.2.C "Not fully engaging all targets as required". The stage had five targets that were to be engaged with three shots each while moving down range. The shooter engaged all targets with two rounds and was penalized for points down plus the FP. No competitive advantage was gained, and it was clear the shooter had a "mental malfunction". Is this a proper application of the FP?
     

    igotdiesel2

    Sharpshooter
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    Jan 16, 2009
    480
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    Southport area of In
    I did something similar last week at ACC. I only engaged the second array of targets with 2 rounds each instead of 3. I received the points down plus 2 procedurals. Mine worked to my advantage because it was only 6 seconds instead of 10. The SO running me made that call and I followed his example for the rest of the match while I was running others.

    But according to the rule book, I should have received a FP instead of the 2 procedurals.

    Now in your case had I been the SO and not given him the FP the 5 procedurals (15 seconds total) I would have given would have been worse than 1 FP (10 seconds) time wise. I would have been wrong doing so and I, in fact, did do it wrong a few times last Saturday I am sure.

    So according to the rule book, yes that was the correct way to call a FP on the shooter.-Jason
     

    Indy-Mike

    Sharpshooter
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    Jul 5, 2013
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    Carmel
    The way I read it is you don't give multipl PE for doing the same thing, it's only one per shooting position.

    Rule 5.1. A PE is assessed for each type of infraction. If the shooter commits more than one type of infraction, such as using thewrong specified hand and firing an incorrect number of shots, a separate PE is assessed for each type of infraction. Forcover violations (or faulting the line), the number of cover PEs cannot exceed the number of positions of cover.
     

    MrMunster

    Plinker
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    1   0   0
    Jul 5, 2009
    81
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    For the FP, the SO makes the call but must have it approved by the MD. The MD then decides if the infraction is an FP or just a PE. Was the call approved by the MD per the last line of 5.2?

    The SO in igotdiesel2's case made the wrong call and needs to re-read the rulebook.
     

    jwo483

    Shooter
    Rating - 96.9%
    31   1   0
    Oct 9, 2011
    655
    18
    Westfield
    Rule 5.1. A PE is assessed for each type of infraction. If the shooter commits more than one type of infraction, such as using the wrong specified hand and firing an incorrect number of shots, a separate PE is assessed for each type of infraction. For cover violations (or faulting the line), the number of cover PEs cannot exceed the number of positions of cover.

    There is no FP unless the infraction was committed to gain a competitive advantage. Because the shooter would be penalized for the misses plus one procedural if scored correctly, none would be gained. No FP.
     

    in625shooter

    Master
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    0   0   0
    Mar 21, 2008
    2,136
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    I was there and it was the right call. While if it was a national match I could see some calling for more but the ROs we're more than fair and equitable.
     

    jwo483

    Shooter
    Rating - 96.9%
    31   1   0
    Oct 9, 2011
    655
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    Westfield
    but IDPA puts the burden on the So to call all these flagrant penalties that end up being someones opinion

    And of course that never happens in spray and pray heaven. Since they added the flagrant procedural to the rule book there's never been one called at a match I've attended. Oh, but they don't allow guns with dots - that's it !
     

    Indy-Mike

    Sharpshooter
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    Jul 5, 2013
    711
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    Carmel
    I've never understood the animosity between IDPA and USPSA. I enjoy both, they both have the minutia to deal with but they're both fun. Usually good people out shooting and having fun. People need to relax, your not winning the Powerball on how well you do, but, everyone will remember if you were an asshat during the match. Just my humble opinion.
     
    Last edited:

    jwo483

    Shooter
    Rating - 96.9%
    31   1   0
    Oct 9, 2011
    655
    18
    Westfield
    IDPA FP

    I've never understood the animosity between IDPA and USPSA. I enjoy both, they both have the minutia to deal with but they're both fun. Usually good people out shooting and having fun. People need to relax, your not winning the Powerball on how well you do, but, everyone will will will remember it you were an asshat during the match. Just my humble opinion.

    I shoot both as well - the ones who bash either, don't.
     

    Cameramonkey

    www.thechosen.tv
    Staff member
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    35   0   0
    May 12, 2013
    31,688
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    Camby area
    I've never understood the animosity between IDPA and USPSA. I enjoy both, they both have the minutia to deal with but they're both fun. Usually good people out shooting and having fun. People need to relax, your not winning the Powerball on how well you do, but, everyone will remember if you were an asshat during the match. Just my humble opinion.


    OH YES. SOOOO YES.

    And I've got a suspicion we are thinking about the same person. :):
     

    Grelber

    Master
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    17   0   0
    Jan 7, 2012
    3,479
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    Southern Indiana
    So the USPSA SO isnt the one who calls penalties? If not, then who?

    Penalties that are difficult to call 100% consistently and correctly is where the cheese gets binding.

    With IDPA using cover lines on the ground has really helped with the worst example, but IDPA will always have more procedural penalties due to the prescribed nature of the sport and the frequency of unique actions specified in stage procedures. USPSA is a lot more "just be safe and shoot all of the targets however you want to". Newness of the rule book also makes things more difficult for IDPA but ideally this will be just for the short term.

    If you wish, look at major match results in IDPA and USPSA and count penalties. USPSA will tend to have as many or more safety DQ's but IDPA will be way out front in procedurals.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
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    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
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    Indiana
    I've never understood the animosity between IDPA and USPSA. I enjoy both, they both have the minutia to deal with but they're both fun. Usually good people out shooting and having fun. People need to relax, your not winning the Powerball on how well you do, but, everyone will remember if you were an asshat during the match. Just my humble opinion.

    The animosity from the IDPA side existed since before the sport was created. I was around and participating in email lists when IDPA was just a concept and about to become a reality. There were a lot of sour grapes among some of the creators of the sport and from the beginning, IDPA was "not IPSC." I wish I had saved some of the discussions, but a lot of it boiled down to doing things differently than USPSA solely because USPSA did it, not because it had any other reason.
     
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