Difficult stages at local matches.

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  • Bosshoss

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    The match at Silver Creek Saturday had some drama and lead to some discussion on stage difficulty at the local matches.
    First off let me say that I AM NOT complaining about the stages at monthly matches.
    Some background for those that don't know me.
    I will be 60 years old in a couple of months and while I love shooting I love eating more so I'm not a little guy. I shoot revolver because I enjoy the challenge and tell you this because I look at the stages differently because of the limited capacity of my gun. I have been a match director before setting up and troubleshooting stages. I also do the new shooters meeting at a couple of the clubs I shoot at.

    Ok at Silver Creeks match they had a experienced shooter volunteer to set up a couple of stages at the match. Thanks for stepping up Mike:yesway:. This is not directed at Mike in particular but just the conversation several of us had including Mike.
    He set up the stages and said he wanted more challenging stages, and he wanted to shoot stages that mimicked what he shot at several different major matches this year. He wanted to challenge his skill set. I have no problem with that.
    Every Match director has a "style" and I can usually tell what division the stage designer shoots by walking the stage.
    One of Mikes stages had lots of movement and several ways to shoot it with some interesting options one of which is was a drop turner that was available from 2 different spots if you could move fast enough. Mike said is was no problem getting to the spot the drop turner presented it's self in time to shoot it. Mike is a 30? year old master class shooter that moves fast(much respect) and he also got to spend the day before rehearsing it to make sure it was doable. This is one of the perks of setting up. Everyone else had a few minutes to make the call and most that I seen went with the safe option.( I love stages with options)
    I personally thought this stage was fun and not really that difficult it did have 20 yard mini poppers and 25 yard open paper but a neat stage with some interesting twists. My only real complaint with this stage was that as a stage designer keep in mind that a shooter only has to run the stage once but the RO's have to run it several times. It was our last stage of 8 and everyone was tired and there was a lot of running here. Remember some of us RO's are not able to do this anymore especially during hot weather.
    Mikes other stage was a standard exercise and a tough one. 56 shooters and 14 zeroed the stage and only 9 shot it with no penalties. IMO this stage should have had the distances shorter than they were or more target available. Doing this would have made the stage a little easier and the same people would have finished at the top as they would have just done it faster. Yes everyone had to shoot the same stage and it was the same for everyone. I personally didn't hear anything much positive about this stage. Those that think I'm whining about this stage I'm one of those that shot it clean.

    This isn't about Mike as he stepped up and was trying and all of us shoot stages that we don't like. He said he shot area 8 and they had great stages and he wanted that challenge locally.
    This is where my reason for this post comes in. I would guess that 90% of the shooters at a local match don't shoot major matches and then if they do it is usually because it is local. Many of them are not even USPSA members. Those people don't give a crap how area 8 does it they just want to shoot a match and have fun. Some will get involved want to get better and want to be tested with stages. I believe we have great stages here in Indiana and Kentucky and some of the best match directors around.
    As a former match director and a person that does the new shooters meeting and a RO I have to say while it is great to test the better shooters we also have to remember the lower classed shooters. I have seen it many times over the years where shooter get discouraged(or their ego takes a hit) and instead of taking the challenge of getting better they just quit.
    Remember most of the shooters doing this are B and C class and while we don't have to dumb down the stages we don't want to discourage them to please a few.

    I encourage shooters to help set up stages and even design stages as it will make you a better shooter. Keep in mind that if you do design a stage someone will have a issue with it. Mike was getting discouraged a little because everyone was complaining about the field course before the match and the fact it needed a little tweaking before the match as others saw thing they missed during setup. This is normal. After the match he said that he had several compliments on the stage.
    To me that makes it a success a few complaints and a few compliments make that a winner. Good job Mike.

    I personally like the hard stages I don't care if they have hardcover and no shoots on every target I don't care if we have turtle targets, strong hand or weak hand, long shots, whatever. I do have problems with low ports and prone shooting. That is just me as one of these days I might not be able to get back up. Prone is more a equipment thing as my moonclip holder is in the way and I don't plan on tearing up equipment to shoot a stage at a local match.


    So do we need to have some stages to test the best or just do what has been working for the clubs?


    I always remember something that one of the greatest shooters of all time said like 25 years ago when asked about staying focused on easy stages. He said there are no easy stages if you shoot a easy stage you wasn't going fast enough!


    Remember this is supposed to be fun and designing stages can be just as rewarding as shooting them. Even if you are a new or newer shooter or seasoned shooter and want to try designing and setting up a stage step up and say something.
    The match directors would appreciate the help. If you are around Silver Creek or South Central and want to design and set up a stage give me a shout and I will help you set it up and debug the stage.

    Thanks to all the match directors and support people making it possible for us all to have a place to shoot.
    Once again Thanks Mike for stepping up and setting up a couple stages.
     

    sv40sw45

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    As a Match director and stage designer at south Central , I try hard to make stages run in about the same time frame and not be to easy or really difficult. I have bays I could make shooters run 20 yards to complete a course, but I don't. Stages can be challenging without a foot race I believe.
    Hats off to anyone who will step up and design a stage or stages for local matches. I have been do all the stage design at South Central ever since we started shooting USPSA 25 years ago and it gets OLD I can tell you.
     

    TwinSix

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    This was my first USPSA match... I enjoyed the challenging stages. If they were all easy you would go home saying you got a "win" and never really stepped outside your comfort zone... The truth is if you are NOT working outside your comfort zone, you are not really growing. Since this was my first match, my expectations will be high for the next one.
     

    Bosshoss

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    This was my first USPSA match... I enjoyed the challenging stages. If they were all easy you would go home saying you got a "win" and never really stepped outside your comfort zone... The truth is if you are NOT working outside your comfort zone, you are not really growing. Since this was my first match, my expectations will be high for the next one.

    Welcome to the sport. It is addictive.

    I never said anything about making them all easy. If I go slow enough every stage is easy.
    Many of the classifiers are simple and easy stages yet you will see misses and botched reloads there, maybe more than a field course because of the shooter pushing the speed.

    BTW this match was a typical match you would shoot anywhere in Indiana. Stages wern't really any different than usual for this match except for the number of stages.
    Most are 6 stages and a couple hours shorter.
    The standards stage (3 targets) is not that common but you will see a stage like that every once in a while.
     
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    Grelber

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    The long three target stage educated me on something I should practice on and I hope stuff like that can motivate me to become a better shooter. I have seen similar but harder stages (50 yard) at a level 2 match so even though I blew it I would like to see the occasional similar challenge.

    The next field course I don't think anybody on my squad had any issue with. My antiquated and long out of warranty legs made me very happy that their were several who could run the timer on my squad, if the last position would have been a get there and bang-bang instead of a get there and shoot some tough targets I would not have been capable of running some of the PCC guys with young legs and quiet rifles.

    Thought it was a great match and am grateful to everyone who designed and built stages and otherwise made it possible for us all to go out and play on a beautiful Saturday.
     

    downrange72

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    I had no problem with the stage. I don't think I could have made it in time for a full target. I saw three very talented shooters run it two different ways. I think the one that ran to get a full target was about 3 seconds faster. However he bounced one into the target off the barrel. It had a hint of grease ring so he got the hit.

    The issue with that one is the target next to the 2nd shooting position. Depending on the wind, it would present itself from the back left corner of the shooting box (it was visible from the other shooting box, so,it was still a legal target). Care should have been taken either to wedge the target so it wouldn't shift or positioned it so it was not available from 2nd shooting box. That is my only issue with that stage. And I also enjoy eating and not running.

    Of all the stages, this was not the one to be pasting targets and realize it is your turn to shoot. I had to think my way through it more than I wanted
     

    Bosshoss

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    The issue with that one is the target next to the 2nd shooting position. Depending on the wind, it would present itself from the back left corner of the shooting box (it was visible from the other shooting box, so,it was still a legal target). Care should have been taken either to wedge the target so it wouldn't shift or positioned it so it was not available from 2nd shooting box. That is my only issue with that stage.

    This was also discussed after the match and the stage designer will know next time.:yesway:
     

    Bosshoss

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    The next field course I don't think anybody on my squad had any issue with. My antiquated and long out of warranty legs made me very happy that their were several who could run the timer on my squad, if the last position would have been a get there and bang-bang instead of a get there and shoot some tough targets I would not have been capable of running some of the PCC guys with young legs and quiet rifles.

    Thought it was a great match and am grateful to everyone who designed and built stages and otherwise made it possible for us all to go out and play on a beautiful Saturday.


    Well since you brought it up and it is a good learning moment. The very thing you described caused problems on our squad.
    I RO'ed first shooter on our squad on this stage and he was a PCC shooter. I have been trying to make sure to stay close to the PCC guns to make sure to pick up the last shot. He started the stage and was going to try to race the drop turner and engage it while it was dropping. It went really badly as he missed the popper 3 or 4 times and tried to leave after every shot. He got lost in the stage. He engaged the drop turner and shot another target and headed to 2nd shooting box leaving 3 targets that weren't engaged. I stayed back in first shooting box seeing him hesitate and think about coming back. He then committed and ran to the 2nd box and I was thinking crap I have to get there to get the last shots. Well after getting to the second shooting box he decided to return to the first box to engage the targets that he forgot. Well basically we passed each other in the middle with him going uprange and me going downrange. I stopped him because... well he was heading uprange of me. He did nothing wrong and was safe with the muzzle although he did screw the pooch on the stage. He got a reshoot obviously. I stopped him because I lost control of the situation and got caught out of position. My mistake but was trying to make sure to be close enough to get the last shot. I don't know what I could have done differently.

    This wasn't just a one time deal as another PCC shooter on our squad got a reshoot for RO interference because he went back uprange to reengage a target while in the second shooting box and ran into the RO.

    And yes it was a great match and beautiful weather.
     
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    Tanfodude

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    I'm a B shooter (stil should have been C) and I find difficult and challenging stages are actually fun. Cookie cutter stages are no fun. Set up crew are the most under appreciated people. Big props to you all.
     
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    Fuzz

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    I am a fairly new shooter to the Sport and have made tons of new Friends in the Sport. Also for those who don't know I am the brother of the OP. He has helped me greatly through my first 4 years of shooting and so have many others. I am thank full for each and every one.

    That being said: I am of the lower skill set and have just moved into B and reside mostly in the C Class shooter. I am pushing the 55 yr mark and also am Fat. " Old fat and slow just like the 45 acp" anyway on to my point.

    I like the hard stages and have fun with all. I really like a spray and pray stage where you can just go at it. So the mix is good.

    I remember RVB saying his apologizes in a shooters meeting for stage 4 at Ft Wayne a couple months ago. We all gave him a hard time mainly because he brought it up. It was different and a memory stage with all mags from the barrels. The stage was very challenging and fun. Not Boring For sure.

    ACC had a Classifier match this spring or summer with 3 of the classifiers ( I believe) where you had to hit the ground. Literally. That was rough for the OLD, FAT and Slow. But it also showed me a lot about me and my skills.

    I don't believe mixing some hard stages in hurts anything and is fun for someone shooting for a while.

    My concern would be a new shooter hitting a stage that difficult and getting discouraged to never return. I believe this is where everyone should help and encourage them. There are lots of good folks that wish to help out. There are also some serious shooters that give off an impression that a new shooter is just interfering with his match. This can be worse on a new shooter than a real tough stage.

    It is amazing how many great people we have that give so much of their time to help out and put on these matches. For those who do I salute you.
     

    Bosshoss

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    If the stage is legal what is the problem?

    Stage was legal and I thought it was a fun stage. No one said stage was a problem just said we had a couple of reshoots whether or not the stage had anything to do with it is like saying the reshoots were because of PCC since both of them were PCC reshoots. Technically it was a RO problem and one reshoot was on me although not sure what I or other RO could have done different.
     

    JMitch

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    I am a C class shooter who has been in USPSA for two years and a fairly new RO. I enjoy the challenging stages and am proud to be in an area that has people so committed to the sport that these kind of discussions can occur in a civil manner. We are truly blessed and I thank all those who help keep the fun and professionalism alive here.
     

    rhino

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    "Difficult" depends on the abilities or lack thereof of the shooter. Some think tight shots are difficult. I think going prone and then getting back up on the clock is difficult.

    I don't mind at all when the actual shooting challenges are difficult.

    What I dislike (even more than retarded unloaded starts with all mags on table) is obviously gratuitous movement. For instance, having to move 7-10 yard to engage one target at near contact distance, then back 7-10 yards before you can engage anymore targets isn't a shooting challenge. It's a test of who can run the fastest. Contrary to popular belief, I like stages with movement, but only if the movement includes options for actually shooting.
     

    sporter

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    3rd stage on the video;
    [video=youtube_share;kh1EhrCTFaw]http://youtu.be/kh1EhrCTFaw[/video]

    I thought the stage was great. It had what USPSA needs more of: tough shots, movement, Variety/diversity of target presentation.

    I am 40 years old, definitely not a marathon RUNNER!

    I shot the stage very conservatively and it took me 39 seconds.

    Silver Creeks Match this past Saturday was like shooting a major with the quality of stages presented!

    In fact better...imo
     
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    I liked this match !!

    I understand this is challenging but that stage that we are all talking about is what gets me coming back!
    I get enough standing in one spot and shooting steel at steel challenge which I love but don’t want uspsa to just be turn and burn stages !
    i think if we have a harder stage and something like prone position or kneeling then maybe we can try and make the stage have more than just that way to shoot those targets but if you don’t shoot it the harder way it should take more time! But that’s all in a perfect world and these guys do a great job designing the stages
    but it’s hard to please everyone!
     

    blkrifle

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    "Difficult" depends on the abilities or lack thereof of the shooter. Some think tight shots are difficult. I think going prone and then getting back up on the clock is difficult.

    I don't mind at all when the actual shooting challenges are difficult.

    What I dislike (even more than retarded unloaded starts with all mags on table) is obviously gratuitous movement. For instance, having to move 7-10 yard to engage one target at near contact distance, then back 7-10 yards before you can engage anymore targets isn't a shooting challenge. It's a test of who can run the fastest. Contrary to popular belief, I like stages with movement, but only if the movement includes options for actually shooting.

    well said. it should be about the shooting!
     

    cedartop

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    I have been competing for right about one year now so I am about the furthest thing from an expert you can get. I am an RO and just made B which was my goal fr this season. I am starting to get old, but still move pretty well. I get what Rhino is talking about when he mentions a bunch of movement for no good reason. That being said, we are all going to like different types of stages. For me it is long, difficult shots because that is what I am good at. I went to a Warsaw match recently and though I shot well, I stunk up the stages bad. They had a number of what I refer to as memory stages and I do not do well on those. Now matter how well you shoot, it is hard to score well when you do not even engage 7 targets over the course of a match. Frankly I was surprised I didn't come in last in that match, ut I digress. The more I travel around and compete at different locations I see they all have their own personalities. Stages that would seem easy for people used to them seem unreasonable to those who aren't. I am trying to use this as a challenge to get out of my comfort zone and become more diverse in my abilities. (All the while trying to get faster)
     

    Darwin1973

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    Great video. It looked like a fun stage. Had to work this last weekend and missed the match.

    I am the MD for 3 Gun at SCGC and its a lot of work. Planning, Set up, management of the match, tear down and scoring. it can be a lot. Every match, someone says they didn't like this or that. I try and take that in a effort to improve every match. Early on one of the other MDs told me you wont make everyone happy. Like others have said in the post, I think everyone should design and run a match now and then. It changes how you look at things.

    And like I always say, "What I see and what makes sense when sitting in my office on powerpoint a month before the match and what is laid out in the bay on set up day can be 2 totally different things"
     
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