22 Rifle Long Range -- 2019

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  • Hawkeye7br

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    Saturday March 30, we will begin our 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] season of this discipline at Riley Conservation Club, and then shoot 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] Sat each month April - October. As we continue to grow, we experience the inevitable growing pains. Attendance changes, shooter skill increases, equipment gets upgraded, all the result of popularity among the shooters. Some shooters like an easy format, others prefer a more difficult challenge. With 8 monthly matches planned, (I’d like one of them to be a “Game Day” like our September match) I want to have rotating degree of difficulty each month. Additionally, I hope to run a Wednesday night match once a month. I expect all monthly matches to be 60 rounds.

    3 Formats— To prevent boredom and appeal to the largest amount of potential shooters, I want to change the difficulty of the match each month.
    “20 straight” will be the easiest format and simply be 20 targets in 8 minutes, at each of 3 distances. This should be ample time given that you are not changing distance during the string of fire.
    “Varmint Hunt” is the original format and the most challenging. You shoot 5 critter targets at 3 different distances, repeating 4 times. 20 shots in 10 minutes, 3 strings of 20 = 60 rounds.
    “Half & Half” is a combination of the others, 5 shots in a row at each of 4 distances. 20 shots in a string, 3 strings, time limit to be determined.

    Unlimited Class—After 35 years of Handgun Silhouette, the last thing I want in this game is to turn everything into an equipment race. The original purpose was to host an event where a guy can run a 2 MOA rifle and have a reasonable chance of success. Acknowledging that some shooters enjoy customizing and gearing up their equipment, I think it’s time for an Unlimited class. Custom guns, aftermarket barrels, and/or bona fide target rifles will fall into this class, all others will remain in standard class.

    You can still run different guns in different classes, allowing shooters to fire 2 entries without competing against themselves. The different formats are more conducive to this.

    Distances—75-200 yards will still be the mainstay. I want to offer targets at the 240 line this year, perhaps for the Unlimited class or maybe create a High Master class for the upper echelon shooters.

    Comments? Questions? Plan to come shoot with us!!
     

    Twangbanger

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    Will there be a weight limit to establish a dividing line between "bona fide target rifle" and sporters?
     

    natdscott

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    Will there be a weight limit to establish a dividing line between "bona fide target rifle" and sporters?

    I'm not saying it's completely irrelevant, but the correlation between target rifles and weight is only that, at least in this setting.

    --It is not centerfire, so we're not soaking up recoil,
    --we aren't shooting from F-class rests where the weight helps with tracking and bounce,
    --we aren't trying to keep heat down,
    --yet we are shooting from bags or bipods, so the inertia of a heavy barrel is not an asset as much as it is in sling shooting.

    Too, there are some 8 lb "sporter" rifles out there that would kick bloody snot out of ye ol' 40X.

    My opinion: honesty is the best policy here. Rich started it casual, and I think it should stay that'a away. If they want to try to lie about that, and build some kind of sleeper for this friendly competition...well...they can just bask in their dishonest glory.

    Some of us will know what we are looking at.

    At least one of us won't care.
     

    rhino

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    I'm more interested in making my bullets hit my targets than I am about anyone else's gear or actions.
     

    Twangbanger

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    Just to clarify, I was not looking to rile anybody with my question. I've been supporting this match with my attendance, when I can, since the first year they started holding it. It has never needed equipment classes, however due to overwhelming success, the match organizer is rolling out some new information and asking for questions. It does not matter to me personally whether Rich starts an unlimited class or not. He's the one putting in the work, which I have lauded extensively in these pages. It just might be helpful for people to know some objective specifics beforehand.

    For one example, does changing from a 4x to an 8x scope on a squirrel rifle bump someone into the higher class? I ask this question, because there are rimfire silhouette matches currently operating in central IN which do exactly that (and some of them have a tiny fraction of the participation this one does, sometimes being cancelled for lack of interest). The magnification actually needed to successfully shoot the match is not relevant to this question.

    Rich has mentioned here a few times that people are spending money and "gearing up" for these matches, due to the positive enthusiasm they are generating. That is a good thing. It does not matter to me - I'm showing up with a factory-stock CZ455 and $150 scope regardless. But I remember what it was like to be a newbie. People have posted repeatedly (including Rhino, if I recall) asking what kind of equipment is needed to shoot these things. Some objectivity in the rules might help people in the cold weather months to plan their purchase decisions for the warmer ones (if that makes sense).

    If it does not matter to you, that's fine. But some people will want to know. (Most likely when the thread goes up announcing the first match date in the spring).

    Thanks again to Rich for continuing to innovate with this!
     
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    Hawkeye7br

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    I invited feedback and discussion, thanks for both past and future postings.

    I guess the bottom line question here is this: Should there be a separation of shooters based on equipment?

    The original premise that spawned this event was a long range varmint rifle event. Equipment is whatever you would carry into the field for a varmint hunt. No pedestal rests, no rear bags, no sling or fancy coat, no benchrest type rifle. Fast forward to the rimfire version: same premise, targets sized so that a 2 moa gun & scope will score a lot of hits. A shooter that puts in time to test ammo, refine his position, learn his elevation holds, will score higher than someone who doesn't. That said, this match doesn't have skill level classes that would normally separate the best shooters from the rank and file. It's supposed to be a fun match, and the Lewis class payback eliminates sandbaggers.

    My first choice is to keep this as simple and fair as possible. There has been no complaints of unfairness, I'm just trying to stay ahead of changing developments. This year, I expect to see a handful of rebarrelled rifles. Not just a Shaw barrel on a 10/22, but Shilen, Hart, and Lilja. Barrel profiles are the same or very similar as available from factory. Should there be a line drawn, and if so, where?

    What is factory? Some rifles have adjustable triggers. A 700 can have a 'smith tune a trigger to under a pound, but most rimfires will not do that. Brownell makes a drop in trigger for CZ for $115, how would that differ in function from a Savage AccuTrigger? Aftermarket stocks? A local shooter bought an At-One stock last year for his CZ, making his gun non-factory. Now CZ offers a factory option with the At-One stock. We can create our own Pandora's box.

    Twangbanger related that a newbie wants to know what rifle is needed to be competitive, and he is correct. Few people are satisfied when told to bring almost any .22 with a 3x9 and just have fun getting started.

    Again I ask, should there be a separation of shooters based on equipment?
     

    natdscott

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    Just to clarify, I was not looking to rile anybody with my question.

    If it does not matter to you, that's fine.

    I think you mis-read my response, and if it was me that sounded riled, that's not what I intended. But I am told I am very direct.

    What I was saying is that if somebody feels they need to cheat an already-casual set of rules, then I don't care...they can try to beat me with their little sleeper rifle, and I'll know they are cheating, and I won't care, because the match is not going to be won because the rifle is 1/10th MOA more accurate than mine. The targets are pretty big as it regards the accuracy of many of the rifles out there: it sure doesn't need a "custom" to clean it.

    I see where you're coming from, but I'ma tell you this: more rules and regs is not a positive as much as you might think. I have 4 disciplines of NRA manuals at home, in multiple year's worth, and a few years of CMP. I grant you, I keep up with the rules in those sports because I elect to try to compete in them of my own accord.

    But I have as much fun (or more) at Riley because I can just show up with a gun and some ammo and shoot, and it's tough enough on it's own that I haven't cleaned it yet.

    The casual nature of this match is what makes it more fun and relaxed, and a pamphlet of RULES will make it into just what Rich intended to avoid.

    If a guy wants to have his shooting game resemble an accounting firm, he should take up NRA Smallbore.

    ETA:

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Again I ask, should there be a separation of shooters based on equipment?
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]No.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]The game is not being won by more accurate rifles.[/FONT]
     
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    blacknwhite

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    I understand the wanting to get ahead of the curve, but if it's not currently a problem is it just something to let be for the time being? Or is it the time to address the issue and lay out some concrete rules? Like I stated before, would it be easier to have a production class? (production rifle and a set limit on magnification) I believe that would be easier than to try to hammer down all modifications that do or do not put you in a modified or unlimited division.
     

    Hawkeye7br

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    There has been only one match that resulted in simple plaques. Since we're not shooting for trophies, prizes, or big money, maybe this is just a matter of acknowledging the best factory gun at the end of the day. My inclination is now to leave it alone rather than try to deal with the impending quagmire of "what if...…"

    Additional input still appreciated......
     

    Water63

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    I have some guys that I am trying to get into competitive shooting. This looks like a great door way into theshooting sports.Do they have to be a member or will it be like the USPSA and Steel matches where nonmembers pay extra to play? Interested!!
     

    blacknwhite

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    The simple plaques were a nice touch, any sort of token to the top shooters is pretty fun. My opinion is run the matches like they were last year and if the equipment becomes a problem then address it at that time. Honestly the matches I've been to have been very relaxed and the competition is stiff but friendly. Also the way things are paid out helps keep the equipment from being an issue I think. I could see everyone getting a little worse out if the same 5 guys with custom rigs took the money every month, but since that doesnt happen I dont see a problem. Just my .02.

    I for one am ready to shoot and have some fun. The different formats sound like a great mix, I did enjoy the last big match that I attended. Has there been any though of a points series or anything?
     

    Hawkeye7br

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    ….. if somebody feels they need to cheat an already-casual set of rules...

    It's the casual rules that invites both the casual shooter and the guy that has a Win 52 in the closet. Both are well intended, and shooting a gun they enjoy. The second guy says "hey, if it's allowed, I'll bring Old Betsy". The casual nature also opens the door for the casual shooter who is thoroughly enjoying this thing to up his gear without going full blown 18xx. And that's what brought this about....a retiree adds a Timney trigger, another goes to an adjustable stock, another chooses to rebarrel, and on it goes. I want to appeal to the average guy with a rifle/scope under $600, as well as those who want to tinker with their gear without having "competition-itis".

    To Nate's other point, it's still the shooter that has to make the shot and if you're reading this and more concerned with having fun than coming in first then we invite you. We designed this to be a game that is challenging yet shootable for all skill levels.

    As always, input is invited.
     

    Hawkeye7br

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    I have some guys that I am trying to get into competitive shooting. This looks like a great door way into theshooting sports.Do they have to be a member or will it be like the USPSA and Steel matches where nonmembers pay extra to play? Interested!!

    At minimum, you need a .22 cal rifle with a 3-9x optic. Shooting is prone from a bipod or soft filled daypack. Shooters are squaded and usually call targets and spot for each other (the targets are in "randomly organized" sequence) No membership is needed. There is a sighting in period that varies with each format. 60 rounds total, 5 round limit in a mag. Distance ranges from 75-200 yards. Targets are sized such that a 2 moa rifle will score a lot of hits, the rest is up to the shooter. Those with physical affirmities and cannot shoot prone may shoot from a provided bench. No need for high dollar ammo, most guys shoot ammo in the $4-8 range. An optic with target turrets or hash mark style reticle is preferred. Best advice is to come out and shoot with us before spending a bunch of $$ on something that is not optimal. Under no circumstances should you practice until you can shoot a perfect score before you join us (because you'll waste all summer prepping and never actually shoot with us). Shooting starts about 10:30 and often done by 3:30, sometimes sooner. A Lewis class style payback means payback at all skill levels based on attendance.

    quick edit- most shooters will have target at 75, 110, & 165 yards. We have a Master class, their targets are 110, 165, & 200 yards.
     
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    natdscott

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    My opinion is run the matches like they were last year and if the equipment becomes a problem then address it at that time.

    I am of the same opinion. I didn't see a problem that needed solved other than my own problem of getting there more often...

    ...so I think your inclination here:

    My inclination is now to leave it alone rather than try to deal with the impending quagmire of "what if...…"


    ...is correct. :)

    -Nate
     
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