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  1. #51
    Master jakemartens's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by happygunner View Post
    Aight folks, it's that time again.

    Scenario.

    Shooter is on the last target, points gun at the target presses the trigger. Just a click sound, second press went squib. Upon inspection, sure enough, bullet was still in the barrel.

    What is the call on the last target, is it just a 2 mike or 2 mike and FTSA?

    Per rulebook.

    Shot A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of a firearm.

    Engaging (As in “engaging a target”) A competitor is actively aiming at and firing at least one shot at a target that is within view, not through walls or other barriers/obstacles except soft cover.
    Is this target available from any other position anywhere during the curse of fire?
    "Well Jakey, it's a bit ambitious" -Ken Skeeters

  2. #52
    one happy gunner happygunner's Avatar

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    Let's say 2 positions, part of an array at 10yrds. One being more advantageous in time and accuracy, the other, at least 30yrds.
    Last edited by happygunner; 1 Week Ago at 15:59.

  3. #53
    one happy gunner happygunner's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwo483 View Post
    Although you admit you've never actually shot IDPA. Prejudice without experience equals ignorance.
    See succeeding posts as to why. To respond without knowing the reason behind the action is ignorance.
    Last edited by happygunner; 1 Week Ago at 16:02.

  4. #54
    Master jakemartens's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by happygunner View Post
    Let's say 2 positions, part of an array at 10yrds. One being more advantageous in time and accuracy, the other, at least 30yrds.
    were you watching my gun or the targets I was shooting at?
    Did I shoot at it from another position?
    what did your scorekeeper see?
    are you 100% certain that I didn’t shoot at from another spot?
    "Well Jakey, it's a bit ambitious" -Ken Skeeters

  5. #55
    rvb
    rvb is offline
    Grandmaster rvb's Avatar

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    there is AWAYS the caveat that you have to be 100% certain.

    sometimes there is only one position you can see the target from (and maybe they don't go there, for example).

    sometimes you know what targets they engaged from other positions w/o "extra" rounds that could have been put on the target in question.

    sometimes you loose track, especially when they have make-up shots, or have an unusual plan, or you can't follow close enough to know what they are engaging, or you're tired and dehydrated, etc... then you can't be 100% certain or give the penalty.

    I'd think for the sake of this discussion we can assume we are 100% certain it wasn't engaged...

    -rvb
    Ryan V. B. TY56060 Come shoot USPSA w Ft Wayne Area Practical Shooters: www.facebook.com/fwuspsa

  6. #56
    one happy gunner happygunner's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakemartens View Post
    were you watching my gun or the targets I was shooting at?
    Did I shoot at it from another position?
    what did your scorekeeper see?
    are you 100% certain that I didn’t shoot at from another spot?
    If I'm ROing, it's not hard to see what you're engaging. But I get what you're trying to go for, especially a 30 yard shot in this scenario.

  7. #57
    Plinker Trapper Jim's Avatar

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    ".since we are talking rules...



    Suitable for everyday use. “Race gun” typeholster prohibited Taken from the the Production and Single Stack Appendiximage.jpg

    I have never seen a this rig in every day carry??? How does NROI justify this?




    "See you on the Range"

  8. #58
    Expert blkrifle's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twangbanger View Post


    Hap, did you ever say / write something, and upon further reflection, think better of it? That's what happened in my case. It wasn't directed at you, and I found a word which better captured my meaning. I apologize for any offense, and that was not my intent.

    I would be interested to know: do you think the rules should be changed to address the situation you described? I do, and assumed we all did. But that may not be the case. In my comments above, I am interpreting this permutation of the rules to be an unfortunate case of where the wording of a definition creates a situation which was not intended. But maybe I am wrong. If NROI were to "double down" on this interpretation upon having the question posed to them, then I would have no choice but to do as you are saying, and apply the rule as stated. But I have a hard time believing that's really the intent of the rules.

    One possible "solution" which draws upon the experience of other disciplines, is that this seems like a "disabled gun" type of situation, and perhaps it could be clarified that "No FT_ procedural shall be assessed in cases where the failure in question was due to a disabled gun." Or similar. I cannot see the benefit to the sport, of loading up a shooter with additional "hate crime" procedurals on top of something like this. (Unless we're talking about the example I gave above, arising from a hideous stage design. But it's still awfully contrived). It seems to me that where a competitor could conceivably gain competitive advantage by just taking the mikes, that's the kind of situation "FT_" should be designed to counteract. Preventing gamesmanship. But somebody's gun or ammo simply pukes before the end of the stage, and there is obviously no intent to game the system? I really do not see the point.

    On a different slant, does anybody know the intent behind the aforementioned stipulation of giving the shooter a re-shoot if the RO stops him on a squib? Why is this case treated differently from another type of malfunction? I think if your equipment is faulty, in "practical" competition this should have a cost to the competitor. If I am missing something, I beg instruction and correction.




    I have no knowledge of him falling asleep on the job...but no, I was really saying he's like Judge Wapner. And Boss is like the judge who makes kids walk down the street carrying "thief" signs. And I'm Judge Judy. Or. Something.
    It's in the rule book how to make this call. No need for ro interpretation. Nothing in the rule book on ro interpretation. We all should strive to make the right call knowing that sometimes we will fail.
    USPSA ty17278. Riley Conservation Club VP

  9. #59
    Grandmaster Coach's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trapper Jim View Post
    ".since we are talking rules...



    Suitable for everyday use. “Race gun” typeholster prohibited Taken from the the Production and Single Stack Appendiximage.jpg

    I have never seen a this rig in every day carry??? How does NROI justify this?




    The word Practical should come out of the name.
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com


  10. #60
    Master Twangbanger's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by blkrifle View Post
    It's in the rule book how to make this call. No need for ro interpretation. Nothing in the rule book on ro interpretation. We all should strive to make the right call knowing that sometimes we will fail.
    You are correct sir. I have gained a better understanding of the rules just by having this discussion and thinking it through.

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