USPSA ruling discussion.

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  • Tanfodude

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    Aight folks, it's that time again.

    Scenario.

    Shooter is on the last target, points gun at the target presses the trigger. Just a click sound, second press went squib. Upon inspection, sure enough, bullet was still in the barrel.

    What is the call on the last target, is it just a 2 mike or 2 mike and FTSA?

    Per rulebook.

    Shot A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of a firearm.

    Engaging (As in “engaging a target”) A competitor is actively aiming at and firing at least one shot at a target that is within view, not through walls or other barriers/obstacles except soft cover.
     

    riverman67

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    Depends on how much of a dick you want to be and who the range master is.

    I would call 2 mike
    The shooter attempted to engage the target.
    If I heard the squib I would have tried to stop the shooter. Then he may get a reshoot if the gun is clear.

    Your scenario was last target so not likely
     

    Tanfodude

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    Ok, let's consider this a level 2 match. I would call this 2M and FTSA.

    For local matches, level 1, I'm with you on the reshoot.
     

    Bosshoss

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    2M and FTSA no matter what level the match is.
    If RO stops shooter for squib and bullet is in barrel like described then scored same way.
     

    riverman67

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    2 Mike's
    The shooter attempted to engage.
    I learned a lot about RO discretion at nationals.
    If the shooter wishes to call the range master and ask for more penalties he is free to do so.
    You guys are dicks.
     

    Coach

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    No RO discretion. RM discretion. RM can do anything they want regardless of the written rule.
     

    Twangbanger

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    If the rule is still written that way when I acquire my deputy badge, I would stress the "...actively aiming at and firing..." portion over the "...(a) shot..." portion.

    Two mikes. Whether what the competitor is "firing" actually turns into a "shot" or not lies in the components in the shell, not the shooter's intent. In my opinion.

    "They may be balls, or they may be strikes; but they ain't a damn thing until _I_ call them."

    If you don't agree, stay off my squad. (But you've got a little while yet, before you have to start worrying about that).
     

    Tanfodude

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    I agree with Bosshoss and Jake. Same with coach.

    I guess I'm too nice at a local match.

    riverman67 I understand your part but an attempt to engage doesn't mean there was an engagement per rulebook hence the penalty says FTSA instead of FTE.

    Twangbanger "actively aiming at and firing". That last word is the key. If the gun didn't fire or didn't shoot, it is FTSA.

    The reason I bring this discussions up from time to time so we can be consistent and have fun at the same time.
     

    riverman67

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    So in your mind the squib wasn't engaging?
    I disagree
    Was it picked up on the timer?
    This shooter already has 2 Mike's plus the time they took dicking with their gun.
    I'm going to get a lot of FTSA if I have to hit the targets as well as engage them
     

    M0244

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    2M and scored without FTE. If RO notices the squib and stops them for safety i'd also issue a re-shoot. A lot of people will be lucky if they don't try to correct the problem and blow up their pistol.

    Also most stage plans time the stage score off "last audible shot", you show me a timer than can tel the difference between the rulebook definition of a shot and a primer going off and I'd argue that you should write more rules.

    Rule 1. Be Safe.
    Rule 2. Have fun.
    Rule 3. Don't be a dick.

    No one's life rides on the score/outcome of shooting matches, if you keep up this mode of thinking you're going to drive away anyone participating for fun. The reason someone mentioned IDPA is that people playing the "rules game" is exactly why people left USPSA for IDPA.
     

    Twangbanger

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    So in your mind the squib wasn't engaging?
    I disagree
    Was it picked up on the timer?
    This shooter already has 2 Mike's plus the time they took dicking with their gun.
    I'm going to get a lot of FTSA if I have to hit the targets as well as engage them

    See, I knew you weren't really a Luddite...

    I'm willing to be convinced on this one.

    Has there been a problem with a really, really weird stage, where the shooter had to run a half-marathon to get to the last firing position, consisting of a lone target, and somebody figured out you could potentially gain competitive advantage from going into the porta-sh*tter, mocking up a squib round by pulling the bullet and dumping the powder, re-inserting the projectile and stoking said mocked-up boolit in the bottom of his magazine...then when his turn came, running all the way out there and pulling the trigger on foresaid squib, hoping his primers are weaker than catpizz and taking the mikes, pimping the hapless range-officer (who hadn't thought of such things) and totally wiping out the field because the timer stopped before he started the run?

    Someone convince me this is a thing.

    (I _do_ so very suck at stage planning, don't own any funky shirts and don't travel to big matches much, so I'm keeping an open mind here...)
     
    Last edited:

    Bosshoss

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    Well since I'm already labeled as a dick;).

    Why do some complain about the rules NOT being followed at Nationals by RO's/RM but when we follow the rules at a local we are dicks?:dunno:

    I have shot several Nationals and seen bad calls at all of them so this is nothing new. NO ONE knows all the rules. Case in point I was RO'ing Troy McManus at the last SNS 400 when he screwed the pooch on the stage I was running and got procedurals. Troy and Mike Foley and Tom Palmer(RM) spent 15 minutes with the rule book out arguing about how many procedurals it should of been.

    All RO's make mistakes and hopefully we learn from them.

    Attempting to engage doesn't mean anything and it isn't in the rule book. It also doesn't count.
    I "attempt" to do a lot of things on the range but none of it ever helps my score:):.

    If following the rules makes me a dick so be it. I don't get paid enough to care.

    That being said I have taken liberties a few times like when a new shooter on his first stage didn't get one in the chamber and mag fell out when he drew the gun. He stood there melting down and not knowing what to do. I stopped him and let him regroup and try again. There was the time when the RM at a local had to go adjust a Popper at the other end of the range and he stepped to the line to shoot right away after getting back. He had 1 mag on his belt and I didn't notice, and he got to first reload and stopped because he didn't have any more mags. I stopped him and we pasted them up and reshot him. Legal? No but I don't care. This is supposed to be fun and someone who puts in as much work as the RM earns a little slack. Now if he was just talking and forgot to get his mags then score stands and we get to make fun of him the rest of the day.

    BTW riverman67 thanks for your help at Riley and other clubs. I know the folks at Riley appreciate your help.
     

    Tanfodude

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    It's really not in my mind, I'm merely basing it on how the rulebook is written, for now. If we keep making our own interpretation then we're not doing the sport any good. (Same thing how that default start position was back then, glad they got rid of it as people were having different interpretations) Also, if the shooter already has problems with the gun, making the right call is not being a dick. Making the sport safe AND following the rule book is not being a dick. If the shooter disagrees with the call, call RM and that'll be the end of it and move on to the next shooter.

    If you guys have problems with the rulebook, the NROI is an email away. Before the new rulebook was finalized, everyone had an opportunity to make suggestions.

    Don't get me wrong guys, I agree and understood the sentiment. But then again is why I brought this up cause I knew there'd be different thoughts about this scenario, which there shouldn't be.
     
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