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  1. #1
    Expert Bosshoss's Avatar

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    Rules Clarifusion

    Sundays match at South Central had some things happen that brought up some rules and even though I hate these kind of threads I thought it might be worth discussing.
    First off I HATE subjective rules and we have too many of them in USPSA IMO.

    First up for discussion is the foot fault rules that have been changed this year(Jan. 2019) and recently been "clarified".

    One of the stages at South Central had you starting both heals on marks at the front of the shooting area. This had you starting OUTSIDE the shooting area looking thru a window at targets. This required you to step backwards into the shooting area before shooting targets.
    At the start signal a shooter drew and forgot to step back into shooting area and engaged 3 targets(6 shots) before moving to next position.
    The January rule change said that both feet outside the shooting area is 1 procedural PER SHOT FIRED.
    Now it says that AT THE START it is only 1 procedural UNLESS there is a significant advantage.(subjective IMO ). It is still 1 per shot if both feet are outside the shooting area AFTER you start shooting and leave the shooting area.
    We had some discussion on this in regards to how many procedural's it should be.

    This shooter wasn't gaming it he just forgot to step back and this has nothing to do with who it was.
    IMO this rule is a easy fix. IF I were king it would be 1 procedural per shot fired while touching the ground outside the shooting area. One toe, one foot, both feet, one knee, whatever, outside is outside. NO SUBJECTIVE calls on this. Yes that would be harsh in some cases but all the other shooters managed to shoot the stage completely inside the shooting area so be more careful and try to watch your footing more closely.

    Below is a cut and paste of the latest from NROI.
    Scenario 5 covers this particular occurrence.
    I'm not even going to discuss whether or not it was a significance advantage(in our case above) or not because we had different opinions on that as well.

    You put one foot in, you put one foot out

    October 17, 2019 by Jodi Humann
    Foot faults. When is it one foot fault penalty? When is it per shot penalties? There is still some confusion about this rule, so letís chat about what the rules say about foot faults.
    Among the other changes made to 10.2.1 in the January 2019 rules, sub-rules were added to help make the foot fault portion of the rules a little clearer. Actually the language of 10.2.1.1 and 10.2.1.2 was already there in the old 10.2.1, but is now separated into sub-rules. 10.2.1.3 was added as a new part of the rule.
    Letís look at some different scenarios, and see how the rules apply.
    Scenario 1: Competitor gets to a shooting position and is standing on the fault line but his toe is touching the ground outside the fault line when he fires shots. What is the penalty? What do the rules say? Rule 10.2.1 says that it is a per occurrence penalty, but if there was significant advantage then 10.2.1.1 says itís a per shot penalty. Most of the time, a toe over the fault line is not a significant advantage (see definition in glossary) and in this example it is a per occurrence penalty.
    Scenario 2: The competitor fires shots at the last target as he is leaping out of bounds. The shots are fired while he is in the air, going from inside the shooting area to outside the shooting area. Is there a penalty? Take a look at 10.2.1.2. It says that the competitorís feet have to be touching the ground outside the shooting area to earn a penalty. If he is leaving a shooting area and is still in the air while firing shots before touching the ground outside, he is still in. He isnít out until his feet have made contact with the ground outside the shooting area. So, in this case, there is no penalty.
    Scenario 3: A competitor leaves the shooting area and has both feet touching the ground outside the shooting area when the last two shots are fired. She didnít get the shots off before landing on the ground, the shots actually came after she landed. How many penalties? Again, look at 10.2.1.2. This time, itís two procedurals, one for each shot, since both feet were outside the shooting area.
    Scenario 4: There are multiple shooting areas on the stage, and as a competitor moves between two shooting areas, she starts shooting when one foot is inside the second shooting area and one foot is still touching the ground outside the new shooting area. Is still having one foot outside the shooting area a penalty? Look at 10.2.1.2 again and what it says about re-establishing a presence in a shooting area. Notice the last sentence says that one foot in the shooting area and one foot not touching outside the shooting area is the requirement for establishing a presence. Since the competitor still had one foot touching the ground outside the new shooting area, she will earn per shot penalties until the foot that is outside the shooting area is lifted off the ground.
    Scenario 5: The start position for the stage is standing with both feet completely outside the shooting area, toes on the rear fault line. The competitor forgets to enter the shooting area before shooting the first array of targets. What is the penalty here? Most folks say itís per shot because both feet were out, but that is incorrect. In the January 2019 rules, 10.2.1.3 was specifically added to address this situation. 10.2.1.3 says that if a competitor starts and fires shots while outside the shooting area, then the penalties are per 10.2.1 (per occurrence) or 10.2.1.1 (per shot with significant advantage). Most of the time, the one step difference over the fault line is not a significant advantage, so it is usually a per occurrence penalty.
    In all these examples, knowing what the rules say is critical to making the correct call. Sometimes discussing what is/isnít significant advantage ahead of time with the CRO/RM is also helpful for certain stages. Just remember to take your time and apply the correct number of penalties per the rules.
    Note of clarification (10/21/19): When edits were made to 10.2.1.2 for the January 2019 rulebook, the words ďafter leavingĒ were accidentally omitted, but NROI is still interpreting this rule as saying, ďA shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) after leaving a shooting areaÖĒ There is a ruling in process that will add the words back in. As a result, 10.2.1.2 and 10.2.1.3 are used in different situations. 10.2.1.2 is used when competitors have been in a shooting area and have left that shooting area or are moving between shooting areas in the COF. 10.2.1.3 is used when a stage has a start position that is outside the shooting area and the competitor forgets to enter the shooting area before starting to shoot.



    The second thing that I wanted to discuss that happened was a shooter that got a reshoot.
    I'm not blaming anyone and I'm not going to quote the rules here as they are in the rulebook and are pretty clear.

    A shooter started a stage and there was a unpasted target on the stage. As he was shooting the stage he saw the unpasted target and thought he must have already engaged it so he didn't shoot at it. Several of us saw he never shot at it. The RO saw the unpasted target before shooter got to that position so he knew the hits that were already there so if the shooter had shot that target he could have accurately scored it. Skipping the target should have scored two misses and a failure to shoot at penalty.
    A unpasted target is not a reshoot unless the RO cannot get a accurate score.

    This is a learning moment for shooters.
    If you shoot much it will happen to you. Unpasted targets are a part of our sport.
    If you are shooting and see a unpasted target stick to your plan and keep shooting including that target. Whatever you do don't stop and tell the RO that there is a unpasted target. The stage will be scored as shot including any targets you didn't shoot at.



    Again just thought it might be good for discussion.

    I'm done now.
    Back to having fun and shooting with friends.


















    Last edited by Bosshoss; 1 Week Ago at 13:57.

  2. #2
    Marksman marvin02's Avatar

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    I think the way to prevent this is to make it automatically one procedural per SHOT while outside the shooting area. Nothing subjective, you shoot from outside the shooting area each shot is a penalty.

  3. #3
    Master Grelber's Avatar

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    "this has nothing to do with who it was."

    But in case anybody is tracking this stuff, it was Tom, again.

    1 procedural per shot, regardless makes a lot of sense.
    In a perfect world liberals would taste good and be easy to field dress.

  4. #4
    Marksman Fuzz's Avatar

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    The Foot fault situation came up this weekend for me and the new clarification from NROI that was emailed to me actually changed what I would have called previously. So the clarification helped. Changing the rules is a different story but I agree it would be clearer with one per shot.

    Secondly: The unpasted target issue. I don't agree with the unpasted target just keep going rule. Even if you keep shooting this at least breaks your concentration to make you think move on. This can disrupt the stage and even if a minor delay it still changes the time of the shooter. Just like if steel does not get reset this should be a reshoot. I know this is not the popular or best way to keep things moving but it is the fairest way for the shooter. Plus if everyone understands what not pasting a target means then they would pay better attention to the details.
    MOLAN LABE

  5. #5
    Master happygunner's Avatar

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    One penalty per shot since both feet were outside. If only one was outside, that's where if significant advantage weighs in. If both, clear cut per shot penalty.

  6. #6
    Master Grelber's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
    Secondly: The unpasted target issue. I don't agree with the unpasted target just keep going rule. Even if you keep shooting this at least breaks your concentration to make you think move on. This can disrupt the stage and even if a minor delay it still changes the time of the shooter. Just like if steel does not get reset this should be a reshoot. I know this is not the popular or best way to keep things moving but it is the fairest way for the shooter. Plus if everyone understands what not pasting a target means then they would pay better attention to the details.
    We had some cold weather/old paster related issues Sunday (seemed to go away as it warmed up and as Boss Hoss stopped using the ratty old pasters he had been hoarding). Anyway, I think you would see paster fell off reshoots (damp targets - cold targets - Boss Hoss civil war vintage pasters) as well as didn't paste reshoots.
    Last edited by Grelber; 1 Week Ago at 19:43.
    In a perfect world liberals would taste good and be easy to field dress.

  7. #7
    Marksman Fuzz's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grelber View Post
    We had some cold weather/old paster related issues Sunday (seemed to go away as it warmed up and as Boss Hoss stopped using the ratty old pasters he had been hoarding). Anyway, I think you would see paster fell off reshoots (damp targets - cold targets - Boss Hoss civil war vintage pasters) as well as didn't paste reshoots.
    Yeah we had some pasters fall off as well but in that case they were there when the shooter came to and shot the target. So that is a different issue all together. Not much to help with the cold. As far as Paul using old pasters well........... he is my older Bro
    MOLAN LABE

  8. #8
    Expert Bosshoss's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by happygunner View Post
    One penalty per shot since both feet were outside. If only one was outside, that's where if significant advantage weighs in. If both, clear cut per shot penalty.
    Not according to the rules.
    Read scenario 5 in the NROI example above.

  9. #9
    Expert Bosshoss's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post

    Secondly: The unpasted target issue. I don't agree with the unpasted target just keep going rule. Even if you keep shooting this at least breaks your concentration to make you think move on. This can disrupt the stage and even if a minor delay it still changes the time of the shooter. Just like if steel does not get reset this should be a reshoot. I know this is not the popular or best way to keep things moving but it is the fairest way for the shooter. Plus if everyone understands what not pasting a target means then they would pay better attention to the details.
    Yes it does affect your stage sightly when you see a unpasted target and while it is not 100% fair it is what it is. It falls in the same realm as shooting a stage in the morning with the sun in your eyes while everyone else shoots it later when the sun is overhead. Shooting bagged targets and everyone else shot unbagged. It can never be perfectly fair for everyone even at national level events.
    Can't really compare to down steel as the steel can't be engaged while a unpasted target can still be engaged.
    RO and scorekeeper really should check that all targets are pasted but I would NEVER blame the RO for a unpasted target.
    We can say that the pasters should pay more attention. and maybe they should but things happen especially when we have different people going out to paste everytime as the shooters come up in the rotation. I won't blame the pasters as sometimes things just happens. If it happens several times on a squad I might get grumpy and "suggest" to the squad to be more diligent about it.

    The point was it happens and it will happen to everyone eventually and how to handle it with the ways the rules are written.

  10. #10
    Expert Bosshoss's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grelber View Post
    We had some cold weather/old paster related issues Sunday (seemed to go away as it warmed up and as Boss Hoss stopped using the ratty old pasters he had been hoarding). Anyway, I think you would see paster fell off reshoots (damp targets - cold targets - Boss Hoss civil war vintage pasters) as well as didn't paste reshoots.
    Hey my paster stash was on the cart and the fresh pasters were like 30 feet away. Economy of motion. Hell I even sent my wife to the car to get the paster gun that I forgot.


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