Qualities of a Competition Handgun

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  • jek

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    Hopefully this is the correct spot for this. If not, forgive me for I am new.

    So, I'm curious to your all's thoughts, when looking for a handgun for competition (is USPSA) what specific qualities do you look for? Obviously there's the "feel" of the gun, but are there any design choices beyond that that seem to make a difference? Trigger weight, weight of and distribution in the gun, optics, stuff that's quantifiable in some way.

    I ask because I'd like to get into USPSA stuff and would have posted there but they didn't seem to have any gear threads. I have been to some informal matches (Friday night steel and such) and am not new to shooting. I have my suspicions as to what helps from a platform perspective, but figure there bound to be stuff I haven't thought up.

    Thanks!
     

    bwframe

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    I wouldn't overthink the gun to use. Just make sure you have attended enough steel matches or the like to be safe with the gun in a crowd.

    Then use your carry gear and enough mags to make it through a stage. Your idea of what will be the best for you will change with your experience.

    Too many folks want to "hardware" their way in, when it's not necessary. It's actually detrimental and leads to a lot of wasted money.

    Don't be concerned about posting questions in any of the Shooting Sports sections or threads. Very smart and helpful folks there.
     

    EyeCarry

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    Welcome to INGO jek. You are in my neck of the woods! I shoot steel pretty regularly but not USPSA. The steel matches don't need much as you already know. I just run a midway belt and some cheapo mag holders (not even needed most places). Serious USPSA shooting would probably need something with a little more quality. Others will pipe in I'm sure.
    I do think there is a "white paper" of sorts on here about gear for competing.
     

    Whip_McCord

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    As the others have said so far, equipment is not that important, especially at first. I don't shoot USPSA much. The times I shot it, I used a revolver. I like revolvers. My CF and 45 gun for bullseye is a revolver (S&W 625). Been shooting that for years at Camp Perry. I usually shoot a revolver for Steel Challenge. I shoot mostly revolvers in my local PPC league, as well as a custom revolver for Action Pistol (think Bianchi Cup). I also shoot ICORE when I can (think revolver only USPSA). I'm not saying shoot a revolver. I'm saying shoot what you like. They are just games.

    I assume you have at least one gun, since you stated you shoot some steel already. What gun(s) do you currently have? I'm sure something you own is appropriate for USPSA. The gun does not need great accuracy for USPSA. Most good pistols from good manufacturers are more than accurate enough for USPSA. You just need to find out from your local club how many mags you would need, mag holders, etc.

    I have several competition specific firearms, but lately I just like shooting what I have for new games, if it is appropriate for that type of match. I like changing the gun I use too, just for fun, but I'm too old to take any of this seriously. It is just fun.

    L8R,
    Whip
     

    Trapper Jim

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    Hopefully this is the correct spot for this. If not, forgive me for I am new.

    So, I'm curious to your all's thoughts, when looking for a handgun for competition (is USPSA) what specific qualities do you look for? Obviously there's the "feel" of the gun, but are there any design choices beyond that that seem to make a difference? Trigger weight, weight of and distribution in the gun, optics, stuff that's quantifiable in some way.

    I ask because I'd like to get into USPSA stuff and would have posted there but they didn't seem to have any gear threads. I have been to some informal matches (Friday night steel and such) and am not new to shooting. I have my suspicions as to what helps from a platform perspective, but figure there bound to be stuff I haven't thought up.

    Thanks!

    Fantastic to welcome you to USPSA. I will meet you at any range in Indiana, set up a course and walk us thru it. Complete with practiscore. With a few guns between the both us, we can cover everything in about 2 hours. Would enjoy the opportunity to ambassador this for you for no charge.
     

    JCSR

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    Fantastic to welcome you to USPSA. I will meet you at any range in Indiana, set up a course and walk us thru it. Complete with practiscore. With a few guns between the both us, we can cover everything in about 2 hours. Would enjoy the opportunity to ambassador this for you for no charge.

    Outstanding offer! :ingo:
     

    Trapper Jim

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    To have fun in USPSA standard guns and equipment do just fine. I started out with basic stuff, advanced to ability driven equipment on the Road to racing in Open Class, and then for about the last 15 years or so I compete with street guns and gear. This is where I have the most fun. All my triggers are 4LB + and my holsters/equipment are concealable. The beautiful thing about USPSA is the freedom to do and play with what you want. Start out with Raw Guns, tweak your equipment as your skill set will allow and don't look back. You will have so much fun and enjoy the rewards of trigger time and a lot of great people too. The competitive shooting sports can be intimidating but the water is only cold at first and the competitor who finishes in last place is far better off than those that won't.
     

    Dean C.

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    The most important thing is you find a handgun that fits your hand and you can shoot well. Once you do that, honestly shoot a season of USPSA and you will get a feel for what you like / don't like about the gun.

    Took me around 2/3 years before I went from production / Single Stack to actually buying a dedicated limited gun.
     

    Good on paper

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    Find a division that fits what you have now and shoot some matches and talk to your squad mates about what they run. You’ll see that depending on the division serious guys are generally running similar guns, limited is a 2011 variant, production is likely a CZ, carry optics is probably a Sig X5 or Walther Q5 ... of course there are outliers but these guys are running them for a reason. Most dudes are happy to show and tell.
    Figure out what division appeals to you and hone in from there.
    The other thing i would suggest is learn the safety and scoring rules, it’s not as fun as getting gear but it costs a lot less :)
     

    crewchief888

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    all depends on what division you want to shoot in. theres are rules as far as holsters, mag carriers, gun modifications, and number of rounds. limited and open have magazine length restrictions.
    ive shot open division since the mid 90's with the same (outdated, and used) gun and gear.
    if I was just getting started, i'd grab a glock 17, 3 or 4 mags, a case of 9mm ammo, a kydex holster, mag carriers, and a competition style inner/outer belt and go shoot.

    whip mentioned he shoots for fun, i do too, i'll never be any better or faster than i used to be, my classification percentage has stayed the same all these years.
    :cheers:
     

    Coach

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    There is plenty of advice above and it is all accurate in a certain context, but much of it is off target to the question being asked if I read the question right, This is a hardware question and I hate hardware questions for the most part. The question is further complicated by the different divisions of USPSA.

    The most important thing is the trigger when you listen to the great shooters talk they never leave out the trigger in the discussion. You need a trigger that is light and crisp and still performs reliable and avoids things like hammer follow. I can remember one year at the Single Stack Classic that Rob Leatham was going to head back to the hotel and do a trigger job on his gun and then test it just prior to the match. Gabe White at the Tactical Conference was talking about different guns and said it all comes down to a great trigger. Why does Glock not rule Production Division any longer? Because other guns have triggers that are far superior. I don't think a flat trigger or curved trigger has an advantage over the other. Pick the type you like best and stay with it.

    Sights: Iron sighted guns normally have adjustable rear sights regardless. That is the majority there are some exceptions but the most have adjustable rear sights. The front sight is normally a fiber optic front sight.

    Magazine release: Normally it is over-sized, extended or custom in divisions that allows such modifications. I have seen this be jacked up by many people over the years. Shooters want to be able to hit the release without too much break in the firing hand grip and they need to be able to hit it without a bobble of any kind. Reloads will figure large into moving up in classification. The mag release and the safety on a 2011 or 1911 have to be fit together or problems begin with table starts. The magazine release needs to not extend further than the primary thumb safety on the left side of the gun so that the release is not pushed when picking a gun up on a table start. Sometimes folks have their magazine release sticking out too far and every table start begins with reloading the gun. Simple little thing that is often overlooked. That hub cap of a magazine release also has to not get pushed while shooting with a good grip. If the release is too big then problems will be created. The size has to be just right.

    The thumb safety on 1911 and 2011 style pistols should be ambidextrous. Some strings of fire require WHO shooting from the holster and the safety must be engaged when the pistol is holstered. In those cases not having an ambi safety is a disadvantage. Serious competitors have the grip safety deactivated on 1911 and 2011 pistols because a 3 second draw is not acceptable and missing the safety can happen.

    I think slide cuts are for show and do not make much difference about performance. It can make a difference about the balance of the pistol. It would take handling a lot of guns and feeling out what you like and then being able to explain what exactly you want to a gun smith, who can deliver that. I think slide cuts have to be careful or you weaken the slide and open up a greater chance of the slide cracking. It will probably crack at some point if you shoot it enough but sooner or later can be a thing. If you cut your slide with the drill press and you do holes on both sides I would push all the way through from one side to the other because lining up the holes from the second side is a *****. So I hear.

    Guide rods often times are changed out to make the gun heavier and balance better. Recoil springs is a huge food fight about what is best. Light springs changed often is the way many people go. If you use a heavy spring it can cause the muzzles to dip as the slide returns to battery. Lighter springs and lots of shooting and cracked slides are a couple of things that impact each other.

    Front cocking serrations are a feature that just look cool and also are handy for unloaded starts.

    A magazine well is necessary equipment in divisions that allow it. It has to fit in the box in some divisions. It is more than a funnel and some people to not realize that. The magwell should also hold or cram your strong hand into a proper high position on the gun. So the mag well and the grip of the gun needs to be fit to your hand. Hands are all different sizes and one size does not fit all. How much the trigger guard is under cut comes into play here as well.

    The grip should have some texture to it. Stippling, tape, machine work are all done to make this happen.

    Some food for thought.
     

    jek

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    Dec 7, 2019
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    Fantastic to welcome you to USPSA. I will meet you at any range in Indiana, set up a course and walk us thru it. Complete with practiscore. With a few guns between the both us, we can cover everything in about 2 hours. Would enjoy the opportunity to ambassador this for you for no charge.

    Awesome! I would love to take you up on that and get some pointers. Always looking to improve.

    To the points that the gear matters less than practice and fundamentals. I agree, but also as an engineer (one whose degree has included a small arms design course) the mecanics and design that goes into guns as they're tailored to different purposes is endlessly fascinating. The competition pistol kick comes from 1. I've been wanting to get into it now that I've moved and settled down some. And 2. That I got the opportunity to shoot a buddy's (who competes USPSA nationally) p320 X5 legion over Thanksgiving when we were running our backyard (metaphorically) three gun. Wow that gun was nice. But it was also tailored to what we were doing so hence the question.

    Currently I have a m&p 2.0 with upgraded sights and Apex trigger, to the gents point of a good trigger helps, it most certainly does. I've put probably close to 7-8k rounds through it over the last couple years and I do like it, once we found the load it likes. Most of those rounds were put through our backyard three gun/action pistol courses. Far, far, more enjoyable that static range, but I digress.

    Overall thanks for the warm welcome! We didn't have anything like this back home so I'm excited by the prospects that a community like this could provide.

    P.S. if anyone knows how to quote multiple people and would let me know, I would appreciate it.
     

    jek

    Plinker
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    Dec 7, 2019
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    There is plenty of advice above and it is all accurate in a certain context, but much of it is off target to the question being asked if I read the question right, This is a hardware question and I hate hardware questions for the most part. The question is further complicated by the different divisions of USPSA.

    The most important thing is the trigger when you listen to the great shooters talk they never leave out the trigger in the discussion. You need a trigger that is light and crisp and still performs reliable and avoids things like hammer follow. I can remember one year at the Single Stack Classic that Rob Leatham was going to head back to the hotel and do a trigger job on his gun and then test it just prior to the match. Gabe White at the Tactical Conference was talking about different guns and said it all comes down to a great trigger. Why does Glock not rule Production Division any longer? Because other guns have triggers that are far superior. I don't think a flat trigger or curved trigger has an advantage over the other. Pick the type you like best and stay with it.

    Sights: Iron sighted guns normally have adjustable rear sights regardless. That is the majority there are some exceptions but the most have adjustable rear sights. The front sight is normally a fiber optic front sight.

    Magazine release: Normally it is over-sized, extended or custom in divisions that allows such modifications. I have seen this be jacked up by many people over the years. Shooters want to be able to hit the release without too much break in the firing hand grip and they need to be able to hit it without a bobble of any kind. Reloads will figure large into moving up in classification. The mag release and the safety on a 2011 or 1911 have to be fit together or problems begin with table starts. The magazine release needs to not extend further than the primary thumb safety on the left side of the gun so that the release is not pushed when picking a gun up on a table start. Sometimes folks have their magazine release sticking out too far and every table start begins with reloading the gun. Simple little thing that is often overlooked. That hub cap of a magazine release also has to not get pushed while shooting with a good grip. If the release is too big then problems will be created. The size has to be just right.

    The thumb safety on 1911 and 2011 style pistols should be ambidextrous. Some strings of fire require WHO shooting from the holster and the safety must be engaged when the pistol is holstered. In those cases not having an ambi safety is a disadvantage. Serious competitors have the grip safety deactivated on 1911 and 2011 pistols because a 3 second draw is not acceptable and missing the safety can happen.

    I think slide cuts are for show and do not make much difference about performance. It can make a difference about the balance of the pistol. It would take handling a lot of guns and feeling out what you like and then being able to explain what exactly you want to a gun smith, who can deliver that. I think slide cuts have to be careful or you weaken the slide and open up a greater chance of the slide cracking. It will probably crack at some point if you shoot it enough but sooner or later can be a thing. If you cut your slide with the drill press and you do holes on both sides I would push all the way through from one side to the other because lining up the holes from the second side is a *****. So I hear.

    Guide rods often times are changed out to make the gun heavier and balance better. Recoil springs is a huge food fight about what is best. Light springs changed often is the way many people go. If you use a heavy spring it can cause the muzzles to dip as the slide returns to battery. Lighter springs and lots of shooting and cracked slides are a couple of things that impact each other.

    Front cocking serrations are a feature that just look cool and also are handy for unloaded starts.

    A magazine well is necessary equipment in divisions that allow it. It has to fit in the box in some divisions. It is more than a funnel and some people to not realize that. The magwell should also hold or cram your strong hand into a proper high position on the gun. So the mag well and the grip of the gun needs to be fit to your hand. Hands are all different sizes and one size does not fit all. How much the trigger guard is under cut comes into play here as well.

    The grip should have some texture to it. Stippling, tape, machine work are all done to make this happen.

    Some food for thought.


    Apologies for the duplicate posts, as I havnt figured out how to multi quote, but there were two that I felt required particular replies.

    I talked at length to the same guy who let me shoot his legion about the division and basically it came down to it doesn't really matter. Find a gun you like to shoot and go with it. Since I don't expect to win anything the abstract "competitiveness" of a division doesn't really matter.

    Sights: that afore mentioned legion was the first red dot handgun that I'd shot more than a literal handful of rounds through. I was surprised how much I liked it and how it eased target acquisition. Unfortunately the location of the loaded chamber indicator on the m&p 2.0 precludes milling for a sight without at least removing the rear iron. Not sure I trust red dots that much since this is also my bed stand gun. Motion activied Reddit sounds cool, but you never know when it's on unless your looking at it. Despite their battery life it makes me nervous. But I digress.

    I agree on the mag release, as I cannot relaibly drop a mag from a Glock without shifting grip unless it has a slightly extended mag release. Thumbs sent long enough. That said it's easy enough to do and I've never had an issue with mine once that was changed.

    Agree on the thumb saftey. For whatever my agreement is worth.

    Slide cuts are interesting. On one hand it does weaken the slides by removing material, but you can also shape the holes to limit stress concentrations and crack propagation to mitigate this. The lower reciprocating mass should be a help, but I haven't enough experience to know how much. Probably an excuse to buy more guns for "testing"...

    Guide rods are not something I've really played with, so good to know!

    I've seen some flared magwells that look downright ridiculous, but they also certainly help. So long as they fit in this box. I'll have to look up the dimensions of the box, but the note that it helps maintain a high grip isnt one I'd considered.

    Is there a preferred method of adding texture to a gun that doesn't have enough? I've seen everything from skateboard tape to professional stippling jobs, but having neither is the professional job worth the cost?

    Thanks for all the food though!
     

    Bosshoss

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    So, I'm curious to your all's thoughts, when looking for a handgun for competition (is USPSA) what specific qualities do you look for?

    Top 3 things
    1- Reliability
    2- Reliability
    3- Reliability

    The latest or coolest or best feeling gun with the best trigger doesn't mean anything if it doesn't run 100% with your ammo and mags.
     

    crewchief888

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    Top 3 things
    1- Reliability
    2- Reliability
    3- Reliability

    The latest or coolest or best feeling gun with the best trigger doesn't mean anything if it doesn't run 100% with your ammo and mags.

    I agree,
    my USPSA open gun has a very worn finish, scratches, brass dings on the bottom of the dot tube, and sounds like a thrashing machine.
    but it goes bang (nearly) everytime I pull the trigger.

    :cheers:
     

    Whip_McCord

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    OP mentioned he has an M&P 2.0. They are fine guns and should be a great choice to shoot in production class. That would give you experience shooting USPSA and a chance to try some guns that other competitors use. That would be your best course of action.
     

    jek

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    The 2.0 likes hot rounds, we had some issues at first with it. It runs fine now though.
    Since I upgraded the trigger I don't think it counts as production, so far as I understand it.
    And yes! I do intend to sign up for the class on Jan 19.
     
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