Active shooter at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas...

HoughMade · Oct 12, 2017

GPIA7R said:
Vegas shooting survivor sues hotel, festival organizer, 'bump stock' maker, Paddock estate - ABC News

Of course they do.

I predicted it...no time to find the post. This didn't really take much in the way of brains to figure out, though.

JAL · Oct 12, 2017

ghitch75 said:
you might get it to burn but it won't explode....

There's also one hell of a difference between tracers and incendiary ammunition. LE have only mentioned tracer. I take what I read outside of official press briefings and news releases with a grain of salt knowing firsthand how news reporting can become twisted. Example: Press briefing mentions tracer ammunition and suddenly it becomes incendiary because an ignorant reporter asks the one standing next to them what a tracer is and they're told it's similar to or like an incendiary. There are both tracer and incendiary 7.62x51 NATO ammunition, plus a third type that's both incendiary and tracer. Incendiary, in general, doesn't ignite until impact and must strike a sufficiently hard or stiff target to do so.

An Incendiary would be hot enough to ignite kerosene, but the likelihood is still low. Liquid fuel won't burn by itself. It must first evaporate and form a fuel-oxygen (from air) mixture that can burn. What makes one fuel more volatile than another is not the ignition temperature, but its flash point, which is the temperature at which enough will evaporate to form an air-fuel mixture that will burn. The temperatures may vary slightly for various grades. I pulled these from online data that didn't specify grade, but they're close enough. The flash point of gasoline is -45 F. That's right, it's 45 degrees below zero. Its auto-ignition temperature is 536 F. Keep these two in mind. The flash point of kerosene is 100 F which is above room temperature (72 F) and above the daytime high for most temperate regions during most of the year. Its auto-ignition point is 428 F.

The auto-ignition point is the temperature at which spontaneous combustion occurs provided it has a proper fuel-air mixture to sustain it. Note that the auto-ignition point for kerosene is over 100 F lower than for gasoline. However, what makes gasoline so volatile is its extremely low flash point. With a flash point of 100 F, kerosene is substantially more difficult to ignite. With a tracer or incendiary striking kerosene, the round(s) would first have to raise temperature of the kerosene within its vicinity to 100 F or above, let it mix with air sufficiently and then ignite it. If the kerosene quickly extinguishes the round it cannot ignite. OTOH, igniting gasoline with an incendiary in particular would be much easier. With a storage tank of either, a leak forming a puddle external to the tank is required and a region of it raised above the flash point by external flame before fuel-air mixture that can support combustion can be developed and ignited.

Long . . . but the -45 F flash point of gasoline is why an open pan of it can explode . . . or if you put it onto a pile of wood or charcoal and then toss a match in . . . versus kerosene's 100 F flash point . . . which you can ignite, but won't generally explode unless it's a very hot summer day and you let it sit for a while.

John

Ericpwp · Oct 12, 2017

Unnamed LE source...
Las Vegas shooter fired 'incendiary' rounds at fuel tank - CNN

Sylvain · Oct 12, 2017

GPIA7R said:
Vegas shooting survivor sues hotel, festival organizer, 'bump stock' maker, Paddock estate - ABC News

Of course they do.

Let's not forget ...

The company that made the hammer used to smash the window.
The company that made the window since if they made a tougher window the shooting would not have happened.
The ammo manufacturer, scope manufacturer, gun manufacturer ...
The company that made the pen and paper the shooter used for his ballistic calculation stuff.
The manufacturer of of the shooter's car since without it he would not have transported the guns.
All the hotel employees who have let him check in and didn't notice all the guns he had.
Of course Vegas PD, EMS and hotel security ... they could have all responded sooner.
The FFL that sold the guns to the shooter and any firearms instructor who taught him anything about guns.
The NRA obviously and president Trump for not being anti-gun enough.
Video games developers and Hollywood producers who are responsible for all the violence (notice there was no violence ever before video game were invented).
The company that made the video cameras the shooter used to see the police coming.
The electric power company that made the electricity to power all the shooter's electronic devices.
Whatever church or political party the shooter belonged too.

So many people to blame and sue ... of course the shooter will never been on that list.

Alpo · Oct 12, 2017

Bump stock maker is probably not going to be part of a joint defense team...if I'm guessing correctly.

Bump stock maker probably can't afford legal costs...files bankruptcy. Another guess.

No new bump stocks from this firm. Don't they have patents?

Solution to current problem without congressional or ATF action?

Perhaps.

Lawyers: feel free to chime in.

Ericpwp · Oct 12, 2017

If it was approved by the atf, I don't see how they are culpable. Isn't there a law against suing gun makers for murders or something?

Alpo · Oct 12, 2017

I don't know how far a litigator could push this. But since it was justified as a device to assist impaired shooters, it would seem an argument could be made (and who knows what discovery would turn up) to show that the maker had different intentions and knew his device was capable of wanton destruction, yada yada yada.

Sylvain · Oct 12, 2017

Ericpwp said:
If it was approved by the atf, I don't see how they are culpable. Isn't there a law against suing gun makers for murders or something?

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act

Same way you can't sue (I think) a car manufacturer, or beer company; if you get hit by a drunk driver.

jamil · Oct 12, 2017

indiucky said:
Oh yeah and this...

You are an upstanding member of the community.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to indiucky again."

:yesway:

jamil · Oct 12, 2017

HoughMade said:
I predicted it...no time to find the post. This didn't really take much in the way of brains to figure out, though.

No need. I remember it. If I can remember it, probably everyone that read it does.

Ericpwp · Oct 12, 2017

Alpo said:
I don't know how far a litigator could push this. But since it was justified as a device to assist impaired shooters, it would seem an argument could be made (and who knows what discovery would turn up) to show that the maker had different intentions and knew his device was capable of wanton destruction, yada yada yada.

You are not thinking of the sig brace?

ghitch75 · Oct 12, 2017

JAL said:
There's also one hell of a difference between tracers and incendiary ammunition. LE have only mentioned tracer. I take what I read outside of official press briefings and news releases with a grain of salt knowing firsthand how news reporting can become twisted. Example: Press briefing mentions tracer ammunition and suddenly it becomes incendiary because an ignorant reporter asks the one standing next to them what a tracer is and they're told it's similar to or like an incendiary. There are both tracer and incendiary 7.62x51 NATO ammunition, plus a third type that's both incendiary and tracer. Incendiary, in general, doesn't ignite until impact and must strike a sufficiently hard or stiff target to do so.

An Incendiary would be hot enough to ignite kerosene, but the likelihood is still low. Liquid fuel won't burn by itself. It must first evaporate and form a fuel-oxygen (from air) mixture that can burn. What makes one fuel more volatile than another is not the ignition temperature, but its flash point, which is the temperature at which enough will evaporate to form an air-fuel mixture that will burn. The temperatures may vary slightly for various grades. I pulled these from online data that didn't specify grade, but they're close enough. The flash point of gasoline is -45 F. That's right, it's 45 degrees below zero. Its auto-ignition temperature is 536 F. Keep these two in mind. The flash point of kerosene is 100 F which is above room temperature (72 F) and above the daytime high for most temperate regions during most of the year. Its auto-ignition point is 428 F.

The auto-ignition point is the temperature at which spontaneous combustion occurs provided it has a proper fuel-air mixture to sustain it. Note that the auto-ignition point for kerosene is over 100 F lower than for gasoline. However, what makes gasoline so volatile is its extremely low flash point. With a flash point of 100 F, kerosene is substantially more difficult to ignite. With a tracer or incendiary striking kerosene, the round(s) would first have to raise temperature of the kerosene within its vicinity to 100 F or above, let it mix with air sufficiently and then ignite it. If the kerosene quickly extinguishes the round it cannot ignite. OTOH, igniting gasoline with an incendiary in particular would be much easier. With a storage tank of either, a leak forming a puddle external to the tank is required and a region of it raised above the flash point by external flame before fuel-air mixture that can support combustion can be developed and ignited.

Long . . . but the -45 F flash point of gasoline is why an open pan of it can explode . . . or if you put it onto a pile of wood or charcoal and then toss a match in . . . versus kerosene's 100 F flash point . . . which you can ignite, but won't generally explode unless it's a very hot summer day and you let it sit for a while.

John

yep i get it and i know how a diesel and gas engine work.......made a few run too......

HoughMade · Oct 12, 2017

Alpo said:
Bump stock maker is probably not going to be part of a joint defense team...if I'm guessing correctly.

Bump stock maker probably can't afford legal costs...files bankruptcy. Another guess.

No new bump stocks from this firm. Don't they have patents?

Solution to current problem without congressional or ATF action?

Perhaps.

Lawyers: feel free to chime in.

There will be a "joint defense agreement between defendants like the concert promoters, hotel, venue and they will work together and hang anything weapon related out to dry, though there will not be a true "joint defense", just an agreement that protects privileges if that is allowed by local law.

If the bump-stock maker has insurance (and why wouldn't you?) they will likely end up interpleading the policy limits (pay the limits to the court and let the claimants fight for it). As to the ultimate fate of the manufacturer, you are correct. I would highly doubt they have much in the way of assets that are not subject to security interests.

The only valuable asset they may have is the patents (if they have them) and those just got a lot less valuable.

Obviously, the defense of the manufacturer is the unforeseable misuse of the product by a third-party criminal. That used to have real power, in Indiana at least, not so much anymore (Delta Tau); don't know about other places. Like I said, though, the injuries are too great for the insurer to fight this for long.

indiucky · Oct 12, 2017

KLB said:
I thought he had fired through the actual door and left a hole that police could see into the room through

Thank you sir.....

jamil · Oct 12, 2017

HoughMade said:
There will be a "joint defense agreement between defendants like the concert promoters, hotel, venue and they will work together and hang anything weapon related out to dry, though there will not be a true "joint defense", just an agreement that protects privileges if that is allowed by local law.

If the bump-stock maker has insurance (and why wouldn't you?) they will likely end up interpleading the policy limits (pay the limits to the court and let the claimants fight for it). As to the ultimate fate of the manufacturer, you are correct. I would highly doubt they have much in the way of assets that are not subject to security interests.

The only valuable asset they may have is the patents (if they have them) and those just got a lot less valuable.

Obviously, the defense of the manufacturer is the unforeseable misuse of the product by a third-party criminal. That used to have real power, in Indiana at least, not so much anymore (Delta Tau); don't know about other places. Like I said, though, the injuries are too great for the insurer to fight this for long.

Seems like bump-fire without any special equipment would play into some defense for the manufacturer. It's the "hey, my product is actually useless because people can do this anyway" defense.

Alpo · Oct 12, 2017

Ericpwp said:
You are not thinking of the sig brace?

No.Here's the first google image result: https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/BATFE-Bumpfire-AR-15-Stock-Letter.jpg

Your letter advises that the stock....is intended to assist persons whose hands have limited mobility....

BugI02 · Oct 12, 2017

jamil said:
No need. I remember it. If I can remember it, probably everyone that read it does.

Yep, I recall it too. Didn't seem at all controversial, just seemed like common sense

I once consulted on a case where an individual had flown his personal aircraft into a broad geographical area of dense fog, made a series of poor decisions and crashed the aircraft by running it out of gas, killing his whole family.
So the gasoline was literally 'good to the last drop' but the estate sued the company that refined the fuel and the company that dispensed it. How deep your pockets are is the prime determinant in whether you'll be included in a lawsuit

Ericpwp · Oct 12, 2017

I did not know that. However, the atf did not justify it as a disability assistance device, the maker did. The atf just stated that it does not convert the ar15 to a machine gun.

Alpo · Oct 12, 2017

Agree. But it's sitting there like a fart in a clean room. I'm no lawyer, but I can see how that remark might play against a youtube advertising video.

NyleRN · Oct 12, 2017

What's up with indiucky posting pics of hot chicks in threads? I like it!

Active shooter at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas...

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