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  • Wolfhound

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    FYI - That's some of the best .32-40 ammo ever made, loaded on the hot side for people who were still using the .32-40 for hunting into the 1970s. A cool old caliber, the Europeans even chambered it in a few drillings, cape guns, and single shot stalking rifles; the case shape is reminiscent of the Sauer family of cartridges that originated at about the same time (late 1800s).
    Thanks for the info Aaron. I had no idea the Imperial was good stuff. This thread is already very interesting and I have a feeling we are just scratching the surface. I have several ammo cans full of surplus ammo I still need to go through. In the past I viewed surplus ammo as something to blast at the range. It is different to look at it as a collector.
     

    Wolfhound

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    I have some 303 Enfield to offer up. Willing to trade for anything unusual. On the left is a Pakistani FMJ head stamp POF (Pakistan Ordinance Factory) 1966. Center is an incendiary round I believe English 1944 and right is an AP round also English 1944. If I am wrong on any of these feel free to correct me.

    20160517_182424_resized.jpg
    20160517_182536_resized.jpg
     

    Leadeye

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    I use a cast RCBS 170 grain gas check on top of 26 grains of 3031. Old gun shoots just fine.
     

    AmmoManAaron

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    I have some 303 Enfield to offer up. Willing to trade for anything unusual. On the left is a Pakistani FMJ head stamp POF (Pakistan Ordinance Factory) 1966. Center is an incendiary round I believe English 1944 and right is an AP round also English 1944. If I am wrong on any of these feel free to correct me.

    20160517_182424_resized.jpg
    20160517_182536_resized.jpg

    Round on the left is Pakistani ball, Mark 7 ball to be exact and is loaded with an interesting propellant called cordite.

    Center is British made incendiary, made by Kynoch (main plant - Witton, Birmingham, UK) in 1944, B (headstamp code for incendiary) Mark 7 variant, "z" denotes it is loaded with nitrocellulose propellant. Note that on the specialty loadings the British used a headstamp code, primer annulus color, and only sometimes a tip color. For example, they did NOT use a tip color on ANY of the 8mm Mauser specialty loadings made for their BESA tank machineguns and these are only identified by headstamp code and primer annulus color.

    Right is British made tracer, NOT armor piercing. Someone has painted the tip a different color. Headstamp indicates it was made by Kynoch at their Plant #4 (Yeading, Hayes, Middlesex, UK) in 1944. "G" indicates tracer, II indicates the Mark 2 variant. Red primer annulus also indicates tracer. This particular Mark of tracer should not have had a tip color at all. Certain Marks of tracer used a white tip or gray tip while others used no tip color at all. FYI - for this to be AP it would need a W headstamp code followed by a Mark #, green primer annulus, and NO tip color.

    As you can see just from your examples, the British are kinda weird and inconsistent about how they identify their ammo. For most countries and loadings the primer annulus color has no meaning at all and they use something much more obvious (like tip colors or bands) to make the special loadings easily identified.

    Also, the way they identify addresses is screwy too, LOL!

    Here is a handy chart for the more common UK military .303 British loadings:
    Headstamp ID
    Primer Annulus Color
    Bullet Tip Color
    Other Features
    Functional Type
    VII or VIIZ
    Purple
    None
    None
    Ball
    VIIIZ
    Purple
    None
    None
    Ball
    G1, G2, G3, G7 or G8
    Red
    None
    None
    Tracer
    G4, G4Z, G6 or G6Z
    Red
    White
    None
    Tracer
    G5 or G5Z
    Red
    Gray
    None
    Tracer
    W1 or W1Z
    Green
    None
    None
    Armor-Piercing
    B4 or B4Z
    Blue
    None
    Step in bullet jacket
    Incendiary
    B6 or B6Z
    Blue
    None
    None
    Incendiary
    B7 or B7Z
    Blue
    Blue
    None
    Incendiary
    O.1
    Black
    Black
    None
    Observing
    PG1 or PG1Z
    Red
    None
    Blue band on case base
    Practice-Tracer
    H1Z
    None
    None
    Front half of case blackened
    Grenade Discharger
    H2
    None
    None
    Entire case blackened
    Grenade Discharger
    H4
    None
    None
    Case blackened 3/4" inch from each end
    Grenade Discharger
    H7Z
    None
    None
    Rear Half of case blackened
    Grenade Discharger
     

    Wolfhound

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    Wow, thanks for the information. I am going to print out that chart. I have several hundred of the POF, about a hundred of the tracer and just a hand full of the incendiary. The tracer is in 2 sealed bags I picked up at a gun show many years ago. I guess it's possible someone mistakenly identified it as AP and painted the tips for easy recognition.

    The strange thing about the tracer ammo is the high crimp groves on the bullets. I am going to give them the magnet test when I get home later.
     

    AmmoManAaron

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    Wow, thanks for the information. I am going to print out that chart. I have several hundred of the POF, about a hundred of the tracer and just a hand full of the incendiary. The tracer is in 2 sealed bags I picked up at a gun show many years ago. I guess it's possible someone mistakenly identified it as AP and painted the tips for easy recognition.

    The strange thing about the tracer ammo is the high crimp groves on the bullets. I am going to give them the magnet test when I get home later.

    Magnet test is not definitive, but I didn't notice the grooves in the first picture. Can you get a better pic? I suspect that somebody used legit AP pulled bullets (probably de-mil from .308 or .30-06) and loaded them into those .303 British cases. If you measure the diameter of the AP bullet, I'm betting it will be close to .308" rather than the .310"-.311" that your other 303 projos will measure. Primed cases (along with the cordite powder still stuffed in them) turn up from time to time, including on Gunbroker. The cordite is long strands that fill most of the length of the case and they are loaded into the case length-wise at the factory before the machinery forms the case neck (!) - it's the only way to get a bottle neck case full of those long strands (crazy Brits). The reason the primed and powdered .303 cases show up is from at least two reasons that I know of:
    1.) A ballistics lab wanted the original bullets for some sort of testing (they pull and reload the projos into other calibers to suit their purposes and to gain EXACT control of the pressures and velocities)
    2.) An importer got some civilian-sales-prohibited ammo so cheap that it was worth pulling them apart to sell just the case and powder on the civilian market. There was a civilian-sales import ban on tracer, incendiary, etc. put in place in about 1989, but appropriately licensed importers can still bring the ammo in for LE/Govt sales, sales to entities with a US gov't contract (think gov't contract for ballistic study, armor testing, or weapons testing), re-export, or de-mil. Since your .303 British round is headstamped as being a tracer, this makes sense. Some original mixed foreign military 7.62x39 cases were on the market a few years ago because the importer got the ammo so cheap that they could afford to pull and scrap/re-export the steel core and tracer bullets. The stuff was "battle field recovery" ammo and was nearly worthless to most legit armed forces so...tada! Kinda ugly mixed corrosive berdan primed 7.62x39 cases for the US civilian market! I bought a small drum of them for personal use so cheap that I don't mind cleaning after shooting :smileak::shoot:
     

    Fullmag

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    This is the orange, green and white tipped 30-06 beside the 40-82 WCF bases.

    image_zpstblgbg6f.jpeg
    This is a black tipped 30-60 with the 40-82 WCF bases. The bullet is damaged on the 40-82
    image_zpskkl5k3py.jpeg


    Base of black tipped and 40-82

    image_zpsyzd9nakf.jpeg
     

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    AmmoManAaron

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    Hi Fullmag, sadly, I don't see anything I need for my collection in the pictures that you posted. But I do have an interesting tidbit about the USSC 1918 .45 ACP round you pictured. Note about the 3 stab crimps: this was a standard revolver load meant for the Model 1917 Colt and S&W revolvers. There were early complaints of bullets jumping forward, out or partially out of the cartridge cases in the cylinders of these revolvers due to insufficient crimp to hold them in (due to recoil inertia). Of course, in the auto pistol, this is not a problem, as the front inner wall of the magazine keeps the bullets from moving forward. If the darn thing had 6 stab crimps it would be a fairly rare helmet testing load and that would be something I would be interested in acquiring.
     

    Wolfhound

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    Fullmag, I would be interested in purchasing some of those rounds. I will send you a PM.

    Aaron, I don't know what you do for a living but if your not working for an ammunition manufacturer, a museum, or a government arsenal your talents are being wasted. :):

    You were right about the black tip 303 ammo. It measures at .309, it has to be pulled 308 or 30-06 bullets in 303 cases. I tested 6 different kinds of 303 rounds and all but 1 was strongly attracted to the magnet. Right again. The one not attracted was a newer Russian manufactured round I got from Bogwalker. I've been hoping he would weigh in on this thread. I know he collects 303 ammunition specifically. An FN tracer 303 I traded for also measured at 309. Everything else was 311-313.

    Here is a close up of the black tip bullet.
    20160518_174534_resized.jpg
     

    Wolfhound

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    Here are three 303 Enfield rounds I traded for. Thank you Bogwalker and TheBoss930! The one on the left appears to be a newer Russian round. It was the only one that wasn't attracted to the magnet. The center round is marked with a red tip and has a head stamp FN 52. It measures at .309. The one on the right is marked WRA 1943 which I think is Winchester made during WW2.



    20160518_175518_resized.jpg
    20160518_175358_resized.jpg
     

    Fullmag

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    Thanks Aaron that was interesting, didn't notice the stab type crimp, 3 just like you said. Have a couple more pics to post up. Also have rimfires over on Kirk Freeman's old .22 ammo post.
     

    TheBoss930

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    Thanks Aaron that was interesting, didn't notice the stab type crimp, 3 just like you said. Have a couple more pics to post up. Also have rimfires over on Kirk Freeman's old .22 ammo post.

    Hi, do you still have the 40-82? I'm interested in it if Wolfhound hasn't gotten dibs on it yet :)
     

    ScouT6a

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    Here is what I have available:
    .22 Short
    .22 Long
    44-40 Winchester
    25-35 Winchester
    .338 Winchester Magnum
    .41 Rimfire Short
    .348 Winchester
    .32 Rimfire Long
    .32 Short Colt
    32-40 Winchester
    .32-20 Winchester
    .38 S&W
    .25 ACP
    .38 Super
    .32 S&W Short
    .32 Winchester Special
    .30 Luger
    .32 S&W Long
    .30 Remington
    .32 ACP
    40-60 WCF
    .450 Bushmaster
    7mm Remington Magnum

    Some of what I am looking for:
    .357 Maximum
    .41 Long Colt
    .41 S&W Magnum
    .357 Sig
    .327 Federal Magnum
    .454 Casull
    7mm/8mm Nambu
    7mm Bench Rest
    .320 Revolver (Bulldog / European)
    9x18 Ultra
    9mm Steyr
    9mm Winchester Magnum
    25-21 Stevens
    25-25 Stevens
    25-36 Marlin
    .275 H&H Magnum
    6mm Lee Navy
    .256 Newton
    .30 Newton
    .243 Winchester
    .243 WSM / WSSM
    .223 WSSM
    .22 Cheetah
    .244 H&H Magnun
    .250-3000 Savage
    .260 Remington
     

    tenring

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    Dug out some old stuff I had for a few years. .45 ACP steel cased made in '43 at the Evansville Indiana plant, Russian ammo from 1929, .30 Pedersen made by Remington in 1919, and some Krag head stamped 30 USA with 220gr. soft point, WRA .38 Special round nose [police ?]. Look up John Spangler at old guns .net for all kinds of stuff.
     

    Wolfhound

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    I think Scout might have the right idea. A list of what you have to trade and a list of what you are looking for. The Indy 1500 is coming up in June, maybe several of us could do some trading there.

    What I have that's fairly uncommon to trade....

    6.5x53R Dutch steel case and brass case (from the awesome dealer at the Central Indiana Gunshows)
    6.5x54MS
    7.7 Japanese
    7.65 Finnish Luger
    7x49 Liviano FAL
    7.5 French
    8x56R 4 head stamps
    303 Enfield shown in previous photos
    32-40 Imperial head stamp
    7.62 Nagant revolver
    9MM Makarov
    32 S&W
    32 S&W Long
    32 H&R magnum
    17 HMR
    8mm Lebel
    22 Hornet
    22-250
    25-06
    222 Remington
    5.45x39
    30 Rimfire
    32 Rimfire
    7.62x45 Czech
    WW2 30 Carbine
    WW2 DEN 30-06
    30-06 frangible
    30-06 tracer
    30-06 gallery

    What I am looking for.....

    [STRIKE]30-40 Krag[/STRIKE]
    [STRIKE]5.45x39 Russian[/STRIKE]
    [STRIKE]357 Magnum[/STRIKE]
    8 gauge shotgun
    10 gauge shotgun
    357 SIG
    [STRIKE]6.5x55 Swiss[/STRIKE]
    577/430 Martini Henry
    Odd 303 cartridges
    50 BMG except ball and AP

    Anything unusual especially military surplus. Seriously, try me. I love to trade and it seems to be the most cost effective way to build a collection.
     
    Last edited:

    Wolfhound

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    Dug out some old stuff I had for a few years. .45 ACP steel cased made in '43 at the Evansville Indiana plant, Russian ammo from 1929, .30 Pedersen made by Remington in 1919, and some Krag head stamped 30 USA with 220gr. soft point, WRA .38 Special round nose [police ?]. Look up John Spangler at old guns .net for all kinds of stuff.

    I would be interested in the .30 Pedersen and 30-40 Krag if you have extras you want to sell or trade.
     
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