retrofit safe room ideas

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  • JettaKnight

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    I've been thinking about building out a safe room (for protecting valuables and people) in the corner of our basement. I've got a few thoughts on this after perusing FEMA documents, tons of websites, general construction books, etc.

    • Plywood, even multiple layers, is pretty easy to breech with a saw
    • Steel is expensive
    • Concrete backer board is hard to cut through with basic tools, but pretty easy to punch through
    • filled concrete blocks are relatively tough, but...
    • I think 8" blocks would be too heavy on the slab

    So, what about a wall, doubled studded, with 2 layers of 3/4" plywood and a 4" CMU block wall attached? That seems like it'd be hard to cut or bust through, and not be too heavy or expensive. You could even build an outer wood wall and sandwich the blocks between them.

    I can't find any examples of this, only mentions of dry stacked blocks between the studs... so either I'm a genius or an idiot.


    -- or -- what about running rebar perpendicular to the studs? That's mess up a sawzall...
     

    tjh88

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    I wasn't willing to pay the $'s for what I really wanted so my compromise was 2 x 4 and drywall walls but I put loose fitting rebar horizontally every foot. It won't keep someone out who has time, but anything to delay entry is a plus. I put in an exterior door and welded reinforcements before painting. I still keep most everything in safes.
     

    K_W

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    Look up DIY in home tornado shelters and add security features.

    For a budget shelter, I would make it in the Northwest corner (sheltered from winds to negate flying debris) and do 2 layers of 3/4 high grade plywood with layers of sheet steel secured together with carriage bolts to a 90* angle iron frame and affixed to the basement wall and floor. I would make the roof one foot below the ceiling, and make the top of the same materials. (Tornado or bad guy can rip up the floor above and take the shelter roof with it) and add an in-swing or hidden hinge steel door with 3 inside open-able dead bolts and a gate pin that drops 2" into the floor. Don't forget ventilation.
     
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    ACC

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    For my safe room, I did block walls, rebar inside and then concrete poured in. I know that is too heavy for you, but you might try what I did for the ceiling for your walls:

    JOIST
    PLYWOOD
    GOAT FENCE
    CONCRETE BOARD
    PLYWOOD
    EXPANDED METAL MESH
    FIRE RATED DRYWALL
     

    JeepHammer

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    I live in a poured concrete house that's earth sheltered... Wife calls it 'Home & Bunker'.

    OBJECTIVE!
    What are you trying to protect against?

    For us, it's 'Tornado Alley'.
    House faces south, tornados don't come from the south.
    The house can't burn, bugs can't eat it, floor drains means it won't flood even if sprinklers have to put out a fire, a tornado can't carry it off, and other than a lot of windows in the front, it will all still be there 100 years from now.

    I'm thinking you underestimate the strength of plywood!
    Sandwich some expanded metal lattice an/or bricks in between layers and it's saw proof.

    Use some metal wall studs between plywood layers and pour refractory cement between layers and it's frigging fire proof.

    *IF* you can find some of those old yellow bricks it's bullet proof. Those old dense yellow clay bricks are ceramic and will break up bullets.
    Since they are 4" thick, and with 3/4" of plywood keeping the broken pieces together, someone would need a mini-gun to get through.
    The old shiny glazed solid red bricks are second for ballistic protection, but you will need about 3 layers.

    Armor is heavy, period. Some is lighter than others, but common materials will be heavy.

    DO NOT secure the top or sides of your 'Safe Room' to existing walls or roof! Leverage points for a tornado to carry it off...

    I'm a machinist by trade, I welded up a heavy metal door frame & door. Think military arms room door. If anything gets through it that's not rocket propelled and carrying a warhead, I'd be surprised.
    Door swings out, there is nothing to hook onto outside, and it would take a tank to push it in.
    Doors that swing into your room are weak, but they will let you escape if anything gets blown up against the door.


    Pocket (sliding) doors are nice, but leave a weak wall where they tuck away, guillotine doors are the best (winch inside to open) but who has the overhead space?

    If you worry about 'Battering Rams' (I had that ONE customer...) Cross bars inside and springs in the corners and on cross bars.
    They *Might* break the hinges, but the springs absorb energy harmlessly.

    Everyone wants to beat on the door, no one thinks about door fame, walls, roof...
    Saw an arms room door laying in the floor where the thieves took sledge hammers around the frame and the door/frame hit the floor, hollow concrete block walls.
    Ballistic protection for doors? Ceramic blind wall just inside the door.
    Saw that in Africa, freestanding wall about 5 feet wide about 3 feet inside the door. It WILL stop an RPG fired at the door, I've seen it.
     
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    JettaKnight

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    OBJECTIVE!
    What are you trying to protect against?
    Small fires, noisy house sitters, small tornados (advantage being below grade), attacker(s) armed with sledgehammers and sawzalls.

    I'm thinking you underestimate the strength of plywood!
    Sandwich some expanded metal lattice an/or bricks in between layers and it's saw proof.
    What about Durock or similar masonry panels?


    DO NOT secure the top or sides of your 'Safe Room' to existing walls or roof! Leverage points for a tornado to carry it off...
    Correct.

    The tricky part is constructing roof on this room. I believe there's 90"-92" of clearance between the slab and floor joist - not a lot of room to work with.
     

    Tactically Fat

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    Whatever you do, be very very careful on what you may drive/secure into the slab floor. If you have a pre-stressed floor and you sever one of the rebars, you're gonna have a bad time.

    I don't know how common that kind of slab is, however. If you know the builder, maybe contact them and ask that question before you go lagging anything into the slab!
     

    JettaKnight

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    Whatever you do, be very very careful on what you may drive/secure into the slab floor. If you have a pre-stressed floor and you sever one of the rebars, you're gonna have a bad time.

    I don't know how common that kind of slab is, however. If you know the builder, maybe contact them and ask that question before you go lagging anything into the slab!
    I can't image that was too common for a residence in the mid 80's.
     

    JeepHammer

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    You can't protect from everything, takes government money to attempt that.

    I earth sheltered because it's tornado proof and didn't cost much more than solid stick frame construction (not 2x4 crap).
    Earth is crazy good insulation, energy conservation.
    Work with what you have, I have dirt & rocks.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are 8x10 & up foot long shipping containers.
    That's tin core steel, double latches on both doors, instead of punching it full of holes, use magnets.
    Tough as nails.
    If you can use one, it's tough steel that sells for a little over scrap weight, and it's already welded up.

    After the big triple tornado removed the town of Petersburg, several got shoved into carports, lag bolted down and had plywood or siding put up on them. Looks like storage at the end of carports. Lots of carports since the disaster relief loans wouldn't cover garages when they rebuilt.
     

    Lex Concord

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    JeepHammer said:
    *IF* you can find some of those old yellow bricks it's bullet proof. Those old dense yellow clay bricks are ceramic and will break up bullets.
    Since they are 4" thick, and with 3/4" of plywood keeping the broken pieces together, someone would need a mini-gun to get through.
    The old shiny glazed solid red bricks are second for ballistic protection, but you will need about 3 layers.

    As far as ballistic protection goes, I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience w/ fiberglass sheets such as these

    https://www.armorcore.com/
     
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    JettaKnight

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    You can't protect from everything, takes government money to attempt that.

    I earth sheltered because it's tornado proof and didn't cost much more than solid stick frame construction (not 2x4 crap).
    Earth is crazy good insulation, energy conservation.
    Work with what you have, I have dirt & rocks.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are 8x10 & up foot long shipping containers.
    That's tin core steel, double latches on both doors, instead of punching it full of holes, use magnets.
    Tough as nails.
    If you can use one, it's tough steel that sells for a little over scrap weight, and it's already welded up.

    After the big triple tornado removed the town of Petersburg, several got shoved into carports, lag bolted down and had plywood or siding put up on them. Looks like storage at the end of carports. Lots of carports since the disaster relief loans wouldn't cover garages when they rebuilt.

    Well that don't help me none, but thanks anyway.


    Anyone know anything about these guys and their doors?
    https://www.smithsecuritysafes.com/

    The price is decent, and their in Bowling Green, not too far from Fort Wayne...
     

    JettaKnight

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    For those with experience with steel... is 48" a standard width?

    I'm looking at prices of 14 ga. steel at Metal Supermarket. :runaway:
    ...trying to figure out how to optimize it for minimum cost.


    I think I'm going to stick with FEMA 320's guidelines - 14 ga steel with two sheets of 3/4" plywood.
     

    Dorky_D

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    So, I have seen this using river rock on a stud wall. For semi-inexpensive bullet proofing

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUS3gvLQPkk

    I think this could be vastly improved by adding a skin inside the drywall or something more durable than drywall. Plywood might help. Cement board might. Expanded metal and week fabric might help the rock to stay between the studs. Putting some spray foam in and then pouring rock in the foam before it sets up might help too.
     

    JeepHammer

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    I apologize, I wasn't clear.

    Cermaics break up bullets (shoot a hard rock).
    Steel attempts to stop a bullet cold.
    Bricks are cheaper (surplus) and easier to work with than steel.
    Hardened steel is much more expensive than common soft steel.

    Neather burn, fire proof.
    The penetration density of both far exceed wood, particularly when the impacting material is less dense and/or less pointed than a bullet.
    Storm debris for example.

    While the government can afford expensive chemical, radiation & biological air filters, there are several types of common HEPA filters that would filter everything but gasses (CX or C02 for example).
    Expensive 02 bottles to add oxygen are 'Perfect', but common common compressed air will keep you alive waiting for a fire to burn out or be put out.
    Many common air tanks would work, but I would polish the inside of the tank and coat with non-toxic liner before use.

    SCUBA or SCBA bottles on the surplus market are high pressure, more storage for the size, and are specifically designed for human use.

    Fireproof fiberglass mat used in both autobody & lining forges/kiln and steel siding (not aluminum) work just fine for temporary fireproofing.
    Metal protects fiberglass, fiberglass keeps heat off bricks and/or steel that protects you & yours.
    Fire resistant drywall inside lets you have the appearance of normality with an added layer of protection.

    Poured refractory cement or concrete do the same job, but less ballistic protection because larger sheets are often brittle and don't drop/fill in gaps.

    If weight is a big issue, cost goes up or protecting goes down.
    ballistic protection half way up walls and none in ceiling reduces weight by close to 75%.
    You simply stay below the ballistic protection while threat exists.

    'Ballistic Fiberglass' isn't.
    Not good for fire protection since the resin is flammable and produces toxic gasses.
    The weave is mostly packed nylon/polyester (more or less 'Kevlar', which is a brand name) with resin much like fiberglass construction.
    The nylon, polyester & resin are all bad news in a fire, if used I would keep them OUTSIDE the 'Safe Space'

    When you cut that stuff, a sheet is most effective, but edges will loose cohesion.
    If you cut with a saw, use heavy tape on the cut lines and use a fine tooth blade.
    You will get cleaner cuts with an abrasive blade, but it will need to be cooled, normally liquid, so common circular saws aren't recommended (shock hazard).
    DO NOT BREATHE THE DUST! I'd recommend you don't allow it on your skin. It's rough on skin.

    If you want to reduce weight & keep ballistic protection, consider ceramic polishing/deburring media.
    Hard ceramic, relatively light weight, odd angles deflect bullets into there pieces and break up bullets with little damage.
    Metal shops discard ceramic media when it rounds over or gets plugged up, and it's crazy efficient at deflecting (absorbing energy) and breaking up bullets, much more effective in weight ratio than common steel.

    Your issue would be keeping the loose media in place, two common ways to do that I know about,
    Conveyor belt or similar material will keep media in place as it absorbs energy and lays flat against studs, wood or drywall type media over belting.
    Suspending the media in cement as aggregate will keep it in place as slabs or blocks.

    You want something that will stop a saw blade cold, that media will dull/stop ANY saw blade in a heartbeat.
     
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    JettaKnight

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    Expensive 02 bottles to add oxygen are 'Perfect', but common common compressed air will keep you alive waiting for a fire to burn out or be put out.
    Many common air tanks would work, but I would polish the inside of the tank and coat with non-toxic liner before use.
    I'm not too interested in the bullet defense, but I never thought about keeping my O2 tank (used for brewing beer) in there till now. :yesway:
     

    JettaKnight

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    So, if the the joist (2x6 8') sit on the new wall on one end, what are my options on the other end, where there's an existing concrete wall?

    I was thinking about a ledger with anchor bolts, but then started to wonder how many bolts and how big of a ledger... maybe king studs underneath...


    :dunno:

    EDIT: nevermind. Figured it out.
     
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    JettaKnight

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    Can you even use a framing nailer on 14 ga. sheet steel?

    If not, then I guess you just use a ton of self-drilling screws. Is there a way to make those screw un-removable? Maybe coat them with something?
     

    JeepHammer

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    Depends on the screw and your definition of 'Un-Removable'.

    If it's Phillips or square drive, simply hit the drive hole with a drill bit. Drive surfaces removed, not an easy task to remove the fastener.
    If it's a hex bolt head, even easier, slightly larger socket that 'Slips' on the head will round squared edges off. 'Impact' socket recommended since you will be doing several and your 'Too Big' socket will be damaged along the way.
    We have all had 'Stripped' screws & bolts, just remember what a pain in the butt it was to get those out...

    If a bolt sticks through, simply use a longer bolt and bend the bolt once the nut is installed.
    Dull bolt cutters will mash/flatten most bolts before they snap the excess bolt off, just try getting the nut off past that flattened part...
    If you think a bent or flattened bolt is a 'Snag' hazard, punch a hole in a rubber ball and drive it on the bolt end. Cheap & effective.

    If a screw or nail protrudes, but you don't want to wobble or cut it off, the crafts store has styrofoam balls for cheap.
    Messing with something like roofing nails can cause a leak, but with a styrofoam ball pushed on it you first SEE the scalp ripper, and if you still brush up against it, the ball saves your hide.

    When I design/build, I often use lag bolt/studs in the walls for mounting points.
    (Keeps idiots from drilling holes where they shouldn't)
    The threaded studs stick out ready for mount, but will rip skin. Again, rubber balls or styrofoam balls to alert and deflect.
    When sharp corners stick out where there will be panicked people, a razor knife cuts sponge rubber balls to fit corner, and they get glued into place.
    Even if they get knocked off, it still saved an open wound, gorilla glue being easier than field stitches...

    There are several types of tramper resistant & tamper 'Proof' fasteners available.
    Torx have a 'Security' pin sticking up in the hole, common torx bit won't engage.
    Phillips & slotted screws have the 'Reverse' drive surface removed, they go in but you can't get a bite on the screw to get it out.

    The MOST SIMPLE is round head carriage bolts with nuts on the inside where you can use them.
    The square lug under the head 'Sets' the bolt so you can get a nut to tighten, but nothing on the domed outside head to get a grip on.

    Carriage Head Bolts,
    This is an old Marine trick, a battery powered drill motor or impact wrench on the INSIDE.
    Spin inside nuts off, kick door or hatch for escape route.
    Door FRAMES installed with carriage bolts will release even when warped/racked & keeping door firmly closed.
    No one can mess with the rounded/domes head of the bolt, nothing to get a grip on.

    We used to TIG weld impact sockets to cordless impact wrenches. No lost sockets.
    When HUMMVEs took mine or IED damage, we could get the up-armor doors off when racked in the frames.
    We used carriage bolts on slat armor over openings. Slat armor will break up an RPG, but it seriously limits your field of fire, so zip the nuts off and kick the slats off, full range of fire.

    The same idea works for 'Escape' routes, something gets blown up against the door, it won't swing.
    Zip nuts off and kick door, frame & all falls on obstruction and you are out.
    I suggest oversize holes for bolts if you want whatever to drop free when the time comes, simply use a larger washer on the inside.
    Carpenters have a tendency to make small holes & drive bolts through, a sticking/wedged bolt is a NoGo.

    I can't believe I'm giving this away, I usually get paid well for these kinds of details...
     
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