burial caches

[PREPPEDVET]

I live in south west Indiana. roughly halfway between Terre Haute and Evansville. I've got some vacant acreage out in the boonies that I'm building on. I've been prepping for a while now, but starting to run out of space. Expansion is not an option except to my vacant ground. No utilities near it, Solar isn't an option due to the thickness of the wooded canopy cover. Ground is clay. its on top of a hill. Water table at its highest is 165 feet deep.

My question or merely idea to bounce off of anyone on here is a burial cache. I have a aluminum aircraft grade, water tight storage box, 39 inches wide, 9 feet long I got cheap from a surplus site. I'm thinking of burying it and storing food grade buckets containing various food items in it. considering the R factor of the dirt at .125 and the frost line of 48 inches, I'm considering insulating my box on all sides with at least R10 insulation. Will this keep it from freezing in the winder and getting too hot in the summer?

 

[rebarguyindy]

If you go deep enough, the soil stays about 56 degrees year round. I am not sure if that is just under frost line or slightly deeper. If you have thick canopy cover in the summer, heat is probably not a major issue.

 

[Tactically Fat]

If a container isn't engineered for the stresses of being buried - it ain't gonna survive long being buried. Soil is HEAVY. like 90lbs per cubic foot heavy (for undisturbed soil, that is).

 

[JettaKnight]

This:

If you go deep enough, the soil stays about 56 degrees year round. I am not sure if that is just under frost line or slightly deeper. If you have thick canopy cover in the summer, heat is probably not a major issue.

and this:

If a container isn't engineered for the stresses of being buried - it ain't gonna survive long being buried. Soil is HEAVY. like 90lbs per cubic foot heavy (for undisturbed soil, that is).

I don't care how much insulation you use, without any heat, it will eventually freeze in the winter if not buried deep enough.

If your box is aluminum, I'm almost certain it will collapse when buried, especially under heavy clay.

 

[Dorky_D]

You could make a vault of sorts. What if you dug a 'grave' like hole, poured a decent slab, and decently built block walls on it, kind of like a cellar, but less cool. You might need to cover it and add a way for it to drain depending.

Here is another idea. I have seen people use the plastic septic tanks as a small storage/bunker. They make some decent sized ones you could even sleep in in a pinch. If one of these was burried deep enough, it could provide quite a bit of temperature controlled storage. If I had property, I would strongly consider this.

 

[PREPPEDVET]

the top itself wont be buried. I need it to be accessible with out digging. as far as needing heat to keep it from freezing, if you're below the frost line, it wont freeze. This is why root cellars have been used for years. My biggest challenge though is insulating the lid/roof to that of being equal or greater than/to the frostline insulation.

 

[PREPPEDVET]

You could make a vault of sorts. What if you dug a 'grave' like hole, poured a decent slab, and decently built block walls on it, kind of like a cellar, but less cool. You might need to cover it and add a way for it to drain depending.

Here is another idea. I have seen people use the plastic septic tanks as a small storage/bunker. They make some decent sized ones you could even sleep in in a pinch. If one of these was burried deep enough, it could provide quite a bit of temperature controlled storage. If I had property, I would strongly consider this.

i've looked at the septic tank idea but sadly, not in my budget. I have the equipment to do it but the tanks are 3-5 grand.

 

[JettaKnight]

the top itself wont be buried. I need it to be accessible with out digging. as far as needing heat to keep it from freezing, if you're below the frost line, it wont freeze. This is why root cellars have been used for years. My biggest challenge though is insulating the lid/roof to that of being equal or greater than/to the frostline insulation.

You never told us how high this box is - only that it's 3' x 9'.

Don't forget, you'll have to insulate the sides and the well as the top.

 

[JeepHammer]

.... No utilities near it, Solar isn't an option due to the thickness of the wooded canopy cover.

I beg to differ...
Being I've been off grid for more than 15 years, and I started on scrub/wooded land, I would say solar is a little more of a challenge than impossible.

From a wagon with batteries & panels you can drag into sunny spots to panels in brush/tree lines barely noticable it's doable, just takes more consideration.

My question or merely idea to bounce off of anyone on here is a burial cache.

Not as easy as a hole & a bucket like most people think...

I have a aluminum aircraft grade, water tight storage box, 39 inches wide, 9 feet long I got cheap from a surplus site.

That's 294 inches of gasket that can, and most probably will, LEAK.
Moisture or Water Resistant, and Water Proof are two entirely different things.

Then you have to consider pressure differentials as atmospheric pressure goes up & down, and you have to consider pressure changes from thermal expansion.
This will put positive & negative pressure against the seal, and let's not forget capillary movement (creep) of liquids...

Keep in mind that aluminum moves (expands & contracts) twice as much as steel, sometimes more, and that's a LOT of sheering load on the gasket/seal.

I'm thinking of burying it and storing food grade buckets containing various food items in it. considering the R factor of the dirt at .125 and the frost line of 48 inches, I'm considering insulating my box on all sides with at least R10 insulation. Will this keep it from freezing in the winder and getting too hot in the summer?

Having seen first hand what happens to most buckets without specific lids,
The best chance you have is to put a wood block on top your supplies, the wood block taking up the last 6", and bury the bucket up-side-down (on the lid).
Inverted, the bucket is an air lock.
The unused space at the bottom is a 'Sump' in the event the seal fails.
Any moisture pushed past the seal collets on the lid, when expansion happens the moisture is the first thing pushed out.

You might also consider PVC tubing and gluing end caps on it for an actual air tight seal.
These can be buried sideways or end up, doesn't matter. Easier to recover when sideways, end up is like pulling a fence post...

Ground is clay. its on top of a hill. Water table at its highest is 165 feet deep.

Since you say you are in CLAY soil, I have to *Assume* you are east of US 41.
If your land is on the old strip mine land, then consider the acids in the soil, along with iron & copper oxide that will attack even aluminum.
Metal fence posts in the Linton/Dugger area often rot off in just 2-3 years in those old un-reclaimed spoil banks, acids, iron oxides & copper/copper oxides run down the ditches over there & corrode everything they come into contact with.

Since you say you are in CLAY, consider soil percolation...
Surface water percolates through clay, up & down looking for cracks & dissolvables trying to find a way into the water table.
Anyone that's ever dug a hole in clay just to have it fill up with water knows this no matter where the consistent water table is...
If you run into tree roots, a tree roots is a water percolation highway for the tree, the hole will ALWAYS be wet. Period.
It's nature, and you can't beat mother nature!

As for not wanting to bury completely so you don't have to 'Dig',
Consider SAND or Pea Gravel backfill. Easy digging, drains after getting wet, and with a metal rod probe makes finding your stash again easy.

------------------

Consider this,
I bought over 100 acres of reclaimed strip mine land, woods, scrub, some tillable land, two lakes, etc.
Reclamation took close to 20 years, and in that time access wasn't limited very well.
I have run into 4 or 5 buried 'Stashes' just building on the land, putting up fences, and doing a little poking around with a metal detector...
(MINE NOW!)
Two camper trailers & one 'Yard Barn' type hunting cabin also became mine when I took possession.
I also get between 3 & 10 deer stands every year, some of them real nice, also mine since they were left on posted land.
The moral of that story is to be very careful where you leave things, property lines aren't often where you think they are, and there are SO MANY people now nothing is 'Private', someone can stumble across your digging 10 minutes after you plant it.

 

[PREPPEDVET]

I beg to differ...
Being I've been off grid for more than 15 years, and I started on scrub/wooded land, I would say solar is a little more of a challenge than impossible.

From a wagon with batteries & panels you can drag into sunny spots to panels in brush/tree lines barely noticable it's doable, just takes more consideration.



Not as easy as a hole & a bucket like most people think...



That's 294 inches of gasket that can, and most probably will, LEAK.
Moisture or Water Resistant, and Water Proof are two entirely different things.

Then you have to consider pressure differentials as atmospheric pressure goes up & down, and you have to consider pressure changes from thermal expansion.
This will put positive & negative pressure against the seal, and let's not forget capillary movement (creep) of liquids...

Keep in mind that aluminum moves (expands & contracts) twice as much as steel, sometimes more, and that's a LOT of sheering load on the gasket/seal.



Having seen first hand what happens to most buckets without specific lids,
The best chance you have is to put a wood block on top your supplies, the wood block taking up the last 6", and bury the bucket up-side-down (on the lid).
Inverted, the bucket is an air lock.
The unused space at the bottom is a 'Sump' in the event the seal fails.
Any moisture pushed past the seal collets on the lid, when expansion happens the moisture is the first thing pushed out.

You might also consider PVC tubing and gluing end caps on it for an actual air tight seal.
These can be buried sideways or end up, doesn't matter. Easier to recover when sideways, end up is like pulling a fence post...



Since you say you are in CLAY soil, I have to *Assume* you are east of US 41.
If your land is on the old strip mine land, then consider the acids in the soil, along with iron & copper oxide that will attack even aluminum.
Metal fence posts in the Linton/Dugger area often rot off in just 2-3 years in those old un-reclaimed spoil banks, acids, iron oxides & copper/copper oxides run down the ditches over there & corrode everything they come into contact with.

Since you say you are in CLAY, consider soil percolation...
Surface water percolates through clay, up & down looking for cracks & dissolvables trying to find a way into the water table.
Anyone that's ever dug a hole in clay just to have it fill up with water knows this no matter where the consistent water table is...
If you run into tree roots, a tree roots is a water percolation highway for the tree, the hole will ALWAYS be wet. Period.
It's nature, and you can't beat mother nature!

As for not wanting to bury completely so you don't have to 'Dig',
Consider SAND or Pea Gravel backfill. Easy digging, drains after getting wet, and with a metal rod probe makes finding your stash again easy.

------------------

Consider this,
I bought over 100 acres of reclaimed strip mine land, woods, scrub, some tillable land, two lakes, etc.
Reclamation took close to 20 years, and in that time access wasn't limited very well.
I have run into 4 or 5 buried 'Stashes' just building on the land, putting up fences, and doing a little poking around with a metal detector...
(MINE NOW!)
Two camper trailers & one 'Yard Barn' type hunting cabin also became mine when I took possession.
I also get between 3 & 10 deer stands every year, some of them real nice, also mine since they were left on posted land.
The moral of that story is to be very careful where you leave things, property lines aren't often where you think they are, and there are SO MANY people now nothing is 'Private', someone can stumble across your digging 10 minutes after you plant it.

about 7 miles east of 41. not on a strip mine, its just woods. been in the family since 1871. Only ever used for hunting/nothing really.

Very good tips though, much obliged. That is what i was looking for information wise.

When you say specific lids, are you talking about standard 5 gal bucket lids or those gamma lids?

 

[JeepHammer]

There are lids made with silicone sealer in the groove, you have to pull tape protection off the sealer before you seal the bucket up.
Those are the only ones I've seen seal up & stay sealed long term.
A place in Ohio sells them, along with 5, 7 & 10 gallon buckets that are thicker/heavier duty than the buckets from the farm or big box stores.

 

[spencer rifle]

You might consider burying something metal (old fence or fencepost, car parts, etc.) above any stash with metal in it. If someone using a metal detector finds it, they will most likely think that the junk is what they were hearing and go elsewhere. When most people think they have found what they were looking for, they stop looking.

 

[The Professor]

I just found this thread, so forgive my tardiness.

I have a bit of experience with buried caches. Last year, I pulled up a cache I put on my parents' land over 25 years ago. Inside I had stored an AK, seven 30-rd mags, one 5-rd mag (fully loaded), 215 rounds of 7.62x39 ammo, mag pouches, and a basic bug-out bag. I used an 8" PVC pipe with one end glued on and the other sealed with grease. Inside, I stored the metal bits wrapped in the same impregnated paper that transmission parts were stored in after being painted in heavy grease all of which were then sealed in heavy plastic bags. Ammo was stored dry in home-made cotton "bandoliers" and then vacuum sealed in heavy plastic.

The cache tube was buried vertically under a rusting piece of farm machinery with the top about a foot below the surface.

I also wrapped and heat-sealed the tube with two large plastic bags before it was buried.

After over 25 years there was no rust on the rifle or metal items. The five round mag, interestingly, functioned flawlessly after being stored for all that time.

Biggest problem I had was that I really coated the AK inside and out. I used Outer's Gun Grease (don't know if it's still sold). It became "thicker" and took a lot of cleaning to get out of the receiver. Still, when I took the rifle to the range, it smoked like a stoner at Christmas when it got hot.

Some of the magazines did end up poking through the plastic bags, though. It must have happened when I stuffed them in. Everything was tied together like pearls on a string to pull them out.

I also had quite the time removing the cap. I didn't remove the entire tube, I just dug down to the bottom of the cap. . .and then deeper to try and get some leverage. I ended up drilling a hole in the topcap and using a "manhole cover hook" dealie to pop the top off (after hitting it several times. . .rather aggressively. . .with a mallet to break the grease seal. Once I finally got the topcap off, it was pretty easy.

I definitely could not have removed it with only a shovel or trowel or even a Digging Stick like I originally envisioned.

The Professor

P.S., I did put all new stuff back into it It wasn't difficult finding another 8" cap. I plan on checking this one in a couple of years because I no longer have the additional protection of the two outer bags. There wasn't enough plastic left above the topcap to seal them. . .not to mention, I don't know how I'd have gotten the heat sealer down there to reseal it.

 

[dudley0]

Very interesting. I have a couple questions.

Could you use a screw on cap with sealant on the threads? This is what I have, but I am not sure of how long it will last with freeze and thaw cycles.

Second thing, do you now feel that all the grease on the AK was needed? You said the mags popped the bag, but weren't hurt.

I can't seem to leave well enough alone for that long. I guess I need to vault two with the same set-up and check one for damage while leaving the other intact.

I hide more in plain sight within structures. Not the best for long term goals but when a place gets sold it is easier for me to move the items.

Congrats on the fruitful plan and thanks for sharing.

 

[firefighterjohn]

I hide more in plain sight within structures. Not the best for long term goals but when a place gets sold it is easier for me to move the items.

Was real curious about some of your ideas about hiding in plain sight. Are they hid for quick access if needed as well? Any ideas you can share wold be appreciated.

 

[dudley0]

Stashed in corners, above doors in closets. I have a holster attached to a couch down in the cushion. Doorbell rings and my hand is on the grip. Have a magnet attached under kitchen cabinet. Holds a snubby just right. Also have a holster attached on the upper side of a vanity. Not easiest access for speed, but it is there.

I have others as well. In cabinets, closets, etc. Have one in a coffee can in the pantry. Stashing at job sites is easier when the place is tore up. Plus I usually put a cooler on site with food, ammo, and such. Along with a duffle that holds clothes, first aid and the like.

Keep saying that I will build a fake section of wall like in Sarah Conner Chronicles. But that has yet to happen.

No more little kids at the house, plus don't have a lot of visitors that aren't in the know. That helps.

I did put a pc of PVC in the crawlspace. Tried to make it look like it belonged there.

 

[tonybia]

Septic tanks are not that expensive. This one is $1000. You could put a riser on both openings and be pretty deep with soil surface entrance.

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...248-c-8597.htm?tid=196934892301901334&ipos=23

 

[PREPPEDVET]

Septic tanks are not that expensive. This one is $1000. You could put a riser on both openings and be pretty deep with soil surface entrance.

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...248-c-8597.htm?tid=196934892301901334&ipos=23

not a bad price. But looks like lid options are 10 inch and 20 inch, I need to be able to physically get down inside the thing and my shoulders are quite broad. I doubt I can get in it.

 

[tonybia]

I'm 6'1" and over 275 pounds and can easily get through the 20" covers. They are designed for people to get into them if they need repaired.

 

[PREPPEDVET]

I'm 6'1" and over 275 pounds and can easily get through the 20" covers. They are designed for people to get into them if they need repaired.

good to know, thanks!