Inverter, Transformer voltage & type questions.

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • dieselrealtor

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    177   0   0
    Nov 5, 2010
    3,271
    77
    Morgan County
    Hoping to kill 2 birds with one stone but want to do the best & most econonimical option.

    After looking at the options that come up for inverters & transformers, seems that everything I find 220v/240v is European market related.

    Looking to;


    • get a pure sine wave inverter for my 5th wheel, 3000/6000 or larger, for short electrical use (microwave, etc) items I don't want to start the generator for.
    • have an option at home to run my 220v/240v deep well pump with my generator in the event of an extended power outage


    My 5th wheel is 50 amp, from what I understand it is a 220v plug however doesn't actually run anything 220 just 2 110 legs.

    Is there a type of inverter that will do a 220v US voltage that will fit both needs?
    If I get a separate transformer for the well pump, what should I look for?


    thanks in advance
     

    10-32

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 28, 2011
    631
    18
    B-Burg
    What are you planning on using to power that inverter? With those specs, it's going to be pulling some serious DC amps. My 110v 1200 watt has 5 30amp fuses so that thing would pull at least double.

    This is one I was looking at a little while back. There's no pluging things into it, it's more meant to be hard wired.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CBAUZAM/ref=psdc_13638742011_t3_B00JFQ5K2S
     
    Last edited:

    dieselrealtor

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    177   0   0
    Nov 5, 2010
    3,271
    77
    Morgan County
    deep cycle battery bank, mainly for short usage of high wattage devices while travelling, don't really want to fire up the generator to make a cup of coffee, run the microwave etc. Will probably be used also for dry camping for tv, etc.
     

    woowoo2

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Aug 17, 2010
    1,448
    83
    Jeffersonville
    For your inverter, look to the solar power folks, it wont be cheap.
    5000 watts at 12 volts is over 400 amps.
    5000 watts at 48 volts is over 100 amps.
    You are going to need a large battery bank to feed it.
    ( Arizona wind and solar )

    For the well, what kind of generator do you have?
    You mentioned a transformer, does your generator not have a 220VAC output?
    Any generator large enough to run a well pump should.
     

    schmart

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 10, 2014
    559
    47
    Lafayette
    Diesel,
    US and Eurpoean electrical systems are completely different and it is tough to match them up. As you understand from your 5th wheel usage, US 220v systems use a pair of 110v legs with opposite phase and a central neutral. This allows you to connect the RV to a 220v source and still get 110v outlets. You can also get an adapter plug that allows you to connect to a 110v only outlet, and get 110v everywhere in the RV, but you likely just can't run everything at once then.

    This is different than european 220v which doesn't have the center neutral connector, just 1 hot leg and a neutral and ground (earth).

    I suspect it will be very difficult to find an inverter that provides both voltages AND runs off of the standard 12v battery banks in an RV. As 10-32 found, you can get inverters based around the solar/wind initiatives and 48v battery banks that would provide both 220 and 110v.

    Now, what you may be able to do, even with your current configuration. (and after re-reading your question, may be what you are wanting anyway)... If your RV already has a generator that has 220v, you could add a standard 110v inverter to the RV to power the microwave, etc., and then add a 220v outlet from the RV generator that you can connect to the well. You would need to start the generator when you wanted well water, but if you used that to fill the RV fresh water tank and then draw from that, you could run the generator for short durations. I'm not sure what you would do for battery recharging as most generators I've seen have low current 12v outputs that would take "forever" to recharge your battery bank.

    One caution, for the RV you can't simply put the inverter output in parallel with the generator. You will have to use some method to isolate the two sources so that they can't both provide power to the load at the same time. This can be a simple manual switch, but you must make sure it is mistake proof. If both are connected, even with one of the sources off, the likely result will be smoke and possibly fire.
    --Rick
     

    10-32

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 28, 2011
    631
    18
    B-Burg
    One caution, for the RV you can't simply put the inverter output in parallel with the generator. You will have to use some method to isolate the two sources so that they can't both provide power to the load at the same time. This can be a simple manual switch, but you must make sure it is mistake proof. If both are connected, even with one of the sources off, the likely result will be smoke and possibly fire.
    --Rick

    https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-...ansfer+switch&qid=1561825040&s=gateway&sr=8-3

    These are the transfer switches we use in our mobile x-ray clinics. They can be ran 110 or 220 (110 dual leg). If power drops below 105v, it cuts the power to you equipment in order to protect it. It also cuts power if it spikes over 130v. It has a hookup where you hard wire your generator and a 2nd hookup for an alternative power source.

    Edit: I forgot to mention they're automatic
     
    Last edited:

    dieselrealtor

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    177   0   0
    Nov 5, 2010
    3,271
    77
    Morgan County
    My genny is a Honda Eu3000is, 110v.

    I have found some 110 to 220 transformers but from what I can tell I need a split phase & they are somwhat pricey for the sole purpose being to run a well pump in the event of an outage.
     

    JeepHammer

    SHOOTER
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 2, 2018
    1,904
    83
    SW Indiana
    OK, I'm officially confused...

    The RV has a 50 amp, 220 vac plug for shore power.
    That means a breaker box that's set up for 220 vac power,
    That's two 'Hot Legs' of 110 vac each, when combined (through two siamesed breakers) the two 110 vac feeds combine AT THE APPLIANCE for 220 vac.

    -----------

    DOES THE RV HAVE AN ON BOARD GENERATOR?

    If so, the generator MUST be 220 vac. It would be dangerous & illegal to have a single line 110 generator hooked to shore power 220 vac line.
    With a set of siamesed 220 vac breakers (two breakers that trip together) you have another 220 vac source for the well pump, the RV generator.

    -----------------

    Now, 90% of 220 vac output inverters (not made in China) are for renewable energy battery banks.
    Solar, wind, micro-hydro.

    RE systems use large battery banks, higher voltages so they can keep amperage down.

    Mine is 48 volt battery banks, and the inverter produces in 220 vac, two 110 vac 'Hot Legs' that combine AT THE APPLIANCE for 220 volts.
    This is identical to the way every home is wired in the US, whole house inverters are made to wire directly into existing breaker boxes and existing home wiring,
    The batteries/inverter simply replace the 'Grid' two 110 vac 'Hot Legs' coming into your home.

    I've installed dozens of inverters in homes, rvs, ect for PV/RE systems.

    The little automotive type 'Starting/Deep Cycle' batteries are neither proper starting batteries, or deep cycle batteries.
    You will need a MINIMUM of 4 each, series 31 size starting/deep cycle batteries if you want to run very much, for very long.

    A 1,000 watt microwave will need about 1,500 to start it. This is called 'Hard Start Surge', and although most guys will tell you microwaves don't have 'Hard Starts', they most certainly do.
    (Ask anyone that's ever tripped a home outlet circuit breaker turning the microwave on)

    The coffee maker is *supposed* to be limited to about 1,500 Watts.
    This is federal electrical code, the average wall outlet is only rated for about 1,500 Watts at 115 vac.

    -------------

    If you have a bunch of 'Deep Cycle' batteries now,
    What I would recommend is mounting the inverter close to the batteries,
    Plugging in an extension cord (or pull your own 12/2 with ground wire) from the coffee maker/microwave to the inverter.
    Simply attach a plug to the wire and plug it in.
    Move the coffee maker or microwave plugs (don't run both at once) into the extension cord you just ran.

    This keeps you from having to wire in a shop to shore power switch, or if you have a generator, ANOTHER ship to shore power switch.
    It's a bit of a pain to unplug the appliances and plug into the cord, but if you try to hardwire the smaller inverters, you MUST have a automatic power transfer switch,
    Without one the first time you start the generator, or plug into shore power you will back feed the inverter and things will get real expensive, and possibly very exciting... Like trying to find the fire extinguisher really quickly.
     

    avboiler11

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Jun 12, 2011
    2,950
    119
    New Albany
    I have a 600w PV array powering my barn, which charges four Duracell 6V GC2 golf cart batteries in series for 215AH @ 24V, powering an AIMS 24V 2000w inverter charger. Battery and inverter cables are 2/0.

    No issues running anything on/in my travel trailer, to include microwave or coffee pot; I’ve even tested my 13.5k air conditioner with a hard start capacitor and it’ll start and run but battery draw is far too high for any use but a test. This all with a 30A RV to 5-15 adapter plugged into a standard 110v outlet, wired with 12/2 Romex, to a load center with 20A breakers powered by the inverter.
     

    JeepHammer

    SHOOTER
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 2, 2018
    1,904
    83
    SW Indiana
    I have a 600w PV array powering my barn, which charges four Duracell 6V GC2 golf cart batteries in series for 215AH @ 24V, powering an AIMS 24V 2000w inverter charger. Battery and inverter cables are 2/0.

    No issues running anything on/in my travel trailer, to include microwave or coffee pot; I’ve even tested my 13.5k air conditioner with a hard start capacitor and it’ll start and run but battery draw is far too high for any use but a test. This all with a 30A RV to 5-15 adapter plugged into a standard 110v outlet, wired with 12/2 Romex, to a load center with 20A breakers powered by the inverter.

    Sounds like you covered the bases!

    Using your system as example,
    2,000 watt potential draw (2,000 watt inverter) plus 10% for surge & safety, 2,200 Watts.
    2,200 Watts ÷ 24 volts = 91.66 Amps (round up, 92 Amps potential draw on battery cables)

    Quick consult the Brown & Sharp scale for DC power,
    A 4 AWG (American Wire Gauge) cable would do for 92 Amps.

    Since you went with the larger 2 AWG cables, you have built in added safety,
    And some extra capacity for 'Issues', the inverter in 'Surge' mode longer than normal, corrosion/resistance sneaking into the connections, thermal expansion/contraction loosening up terminals a little...

    I'll attach the Brown & Sharp scale at the bottom of the post,
    This is for full time use, 100% duty cycle Direct Current, it's not 'Automotive' with a 10% duty cycle, it's not AC connections, the AC guys are always arguing about conductor sizing, but DC isn't AC.
    100% duty cycle without heating the conductor during use, so I use it.

    It will come in handy if you decide to expand your system, or for anyone trying to build a system.

    -------

    I found my worst issue was pre-made battery cables. Awful, from alloy conductor, not 100% copper that would heat up & burn up, to worthless terminals, to insulation that shrunk, cracked, melted immediately, some even caught fire with nothing more than applying heat shrink tubing to seal up the connection from moisture/corrosion.

    Now I use welding cable.
    Welding cable is made to handle amperage all day long, so 100% copper, it's fine strand so it bends/shapes much easier, the insulation is made to take being dragged across concrete floors & sharp edges...
    And it's available from any welding shop or anyplace that carriers welding supplies.

    I crimp for mechanical connection, to keep the cable in place in the terminal.
    Then I solder to keep moisture, and around batteries, keep acid vapors out of the copper. I use silver bearing (2-6% silver content) because it seals up the connection, and it helps transfer electrical energy from terminal to cable.
    I seal it up with glue filled heat shrink tubing. Another layer of TOUGH barrier, moisture/air tight seal with the glue.

    Hard crimp & solder...

    85e9b669-2f24-4276-8bb8-521d5e230e97-original.gif


    Heat Shrink stubing with glue to seal up the connection...

    776077f8-f9b9-4369-b894-c7b2d6645753-original.gif


    What happened when I didn't solder and use heat shrink, the acid bearing battery gas attacks the copper, and in short order!
    A 2/0 cable that would carry 40 amps...

    962d368b-c351-4429-adc4-88c84697a92a-original.gif


    ------------

    The Brown & Sharp DC conductor size scale, 100% duty cycle.
    Figure your max amps, usually the working maximum of your inverter, add 10% or more for safety margin,
    Divide by input Voltage, 24 Volts in the example to find Amps,
    Look up the Amps in the Amperage colum, then move left to cable sizing.

    bcd67425-7fbe-472c-8be4-981df9311100-original.gif


    ------------

    I have panel strings, connected to battery strings.
    I do this for redundancy.
    If a single panel string fails, or battery connections fail, the entire system doesn't fail, each battery string connects to the inverter.

    I keep my batteries on roller carts.
    Battery terminals need top terminal protection, so I roll the carts under a work bench.
    The carts keep me from bending over to the floor to service the batteries, and they make the batteries easy to move.

    When it's time to service a string, I disconnect the string/cart from the system and simply pull it out from under the bench so service is easy.
    The disconnectors I use are fairly inexpensive, but they require some work since they are so close to the batteries, the acid will attack them also.

    This is an 'Anderson' brand connector, they come in a bunch of amperage ranges.
    These are specifically designed for low Voltage, high Amperage DC connections on big battery powered equipment, which is why they are so available & inexpensive...

    474cd7c9-92de-4f80-abbd-6a8618187e33-original.gif


    Same deal with hard crimp mechanical connection, then solder, but I go an extra step and fill the connector with dielectric grease (dielectric: non-electrically conductive) and put a boot over both sides of the terminal to seal it up.
    Where dielectric grease is, moisture & acid can't get into.
    Boots are cheap also... So it's a good fit for me, an industrial seal on my somewhat expensive, time consuming and absolutely necessary connections.

    The quick disconnects handles are also cheap, and I use brass or stainless bolts around the batteries... Again, corrosion issues with steel.

    44a13a5b-c023-4e9d-9432-1f069ca007c1-original.gif


    It's yank the handle, pull the cart out, service the batteries/connections without standing on my head, push the cart back in and plug it back in... DONE!

    Notes about Anderson connectors,
    They are 'Idiot Proofed' by color. Different colors won't plug into each other. (Krylon plastic paint solves this if you want to mark connectors)
    eBay is full of Anderson connectors, terminals, boots, handles, leverage disconnects (if code requires a red handle disconnect), and other accessories, and all Anderson connectors/parts work VERY well.
    There are also a lot of 'China' knockoffs, so look at several pictures, notice the way Anderson marks their connectors, notice the silver cadmium plate on the actual Anderson terminals.

    When I put together Anderson connectors, in the BENCH/bus side of the connector I add change controller, monitor, de-sulfidator wires, etc.
    Keeping the smaller wires on the bench side and allow them to hook up through the connector to the battery string keeps stray small wires off the batteries, and it gets those smaller wires further away from the battery corrosion.

    A lot of guys buy chargers, charge controllers, de-sulfidator, monitor systems built into the inverter, all in one systems.
    I prefer (personal preference) for a modular system of stand alone components.
    If anything fails, it's a quick fix in place, no sending the entire combined inverter/charger/controller/monitor in for service.

    The front edge of the bench is a recessed 2"X6" common board supporting the bench top.
    Makes a good place for inverter delivery cables to run and keeps everything out of the way when working at the bench, everything sits quietly underneath...

    I've been off grid for over 20 years, and these are just some things I've learned to make the system live longer, easer to service, and keep things neat & orderly.
    One DIY guy to another, if you can use any of it, you are welcome to it!
     
    Last edited:
    Top Bottom