Renewable Energy/Battery Storage/Solar Power Get Together?

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  • JeepHammer

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    Aug 2, 2018
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    SW Indiana
    I attended a few solar power get togethers before, friendly events where it was mostly end users that exchanged ideas.
    I don't have access to a creek or lake with constant outflow, so my micro-hydro knowledge is limited, but I saw some REALLY creative ideas.

    Being in the river bottom was down south, I don't have the wind resources for larger scale wind, but again some really good ideas came up from those guys.

    I have built/rebuilt generators for both, so I do have some advanced knowledge on that end of things...

    What I could contribute is more than 50 years of knowledge on the electro-magnetic link, the basis for every generator based system.
    I have more than 20 years of experience in solar (photovoltaic panels) and solar thermal (hot fluids/water),
    I also have done many years of technical writing, making instructions & diagrams for the install of products, making important technical information digestable for end users.

    *IF* a group were interested in learning about this stuff collected together,
    (instead of cobbled together from several sources that may, or may not be accurate, have gaps, etc.)
    I would be interested in participating...

    Since there are so many ways to do solar electric, and since I've studied it for a couple of decades (to figure out how I screwed things up ;) ) I could pass those nuggets of information along,
    My wife has volunteered to print out (paper copies!) of diagrams, general information so maybe some handouts for future reference?
    They won't be plastic laminated like she does for my stuff, but then again *MY* specific wiring diagrams wouldn't help someone with different equipment...

    -- The IDEA of laminated, or freezer bag protected final wiring diagrams with part numbers would be passed along, since no one can keep specifics in there heads for 10 years until something needs replaced or breaks down...
    Nothing like a diagram with all your part numbers, notes, warnings in one place protected from the elements, right where you need them!
    One of the best ideas she's ever come up with, and I turned my nose up at it at first, but the longer this equipment runs, the more I value this simple idea! :)

    About anyone can get the general ideas on their own, but the little ideas are what makes or breaks a system,
    The 'Devil' is ALWAYS in the details, and a get together, exchange of ideas is what makes or breaks a lot of stuff!
    Just knowing what you *CAN* and *CAN'T* get away with is a big deal, and that's what we are talking about...

    Energy production is ALWAYS made or broken by the INFRASTRUCTURE,
    It's not the PV Panels you use, it's the ground mounts or racking, wiring connections that makes the system reliable & repairable...
    I spent the first 3-5 years chasing 'Mistakes', bad connections that corroded, undersize/wrong wiring wasting power, etc.

    It's not the generator you use in micro-hydro, it's the mount for your generator...
    More than one went down stream with floods!

    It's not the generator you use on wind power,
    It's the pole & support you have, the generator doesn't make any power stuck in the mud after a storm...

    Some GREAT ideas have come from the home installers, and those get passed around person to person, no big company passes those ideas along with their products...

    Just an idea, running it up the flag pole to get opinions...
     

    patience0830

    .22 magician
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    Nov 3, 2008
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    Not far from the tree
    Hard to make my schedule match everybody else's but I think it's a great idea. I'd have already bought panels from you but we decided that some interior finish work and a garage needed to come first.
    I've looked at the passive solar options for years. Like since the late 70's but just never made it fit into my situation.
     

    JeepHammer

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    Aug 2, 2018
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    Hard to make my schedule match everybody else's but I think it's a great idea. I'd have already bought panels from you but we decided that some interior finish work and a garage needed to come first.
    I've looked at the passive solar options for years. Like since the late 70's but just never made it fit into my situation.

    Every thinking person has given this stuff some thought, but most haven't taken the time to research it to the point they know exactly what works & what doesn't...

    The old timers (before easy insulation) used to put bricks in the south & west walls, kept the incoming heat down in the daytime, released that heat overnight.
    It's called thermal mass.

    Porches shaded windows in high summer sun, let low winter sun in to help heat the house.
    Simple and effective if you know the sun angles and can figure the distance the porch needs to stand away from the home.
    I say porches are great for solar panels, helps offset the air conditioning bills in summer since they are almost always on the south sides.
    We all know what that AC does to the electric bill... :(

    We pretty much all work on this forum, so everyone can have ideas to input and collect...
    Like I said many times, if you are worried about SHTF and your 'Gun' collection/accumulation is bigger than your gardening tools & home canning tools, you might want to reevaluate your gear...
    I don't shoot everyday, but I eat a few times every day!

    I was just thinking to compile some of this knowledge from guys that do it, everyone has ideas, short cuts, ways to deal with stuff.
    Gears & wires is what I've done all my life, so it's what I can offer.
     

    draftsman

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    Feb 5, 2012
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    Greenfield
    The old timers (before easy insulation) used to put bricks in the south & west walls, kept the incoming heat down in the daytime, released that heat overnight.
    It's called thermal mass.

    Porches shaded windows in high summer sun, let low winter sun in to help heat the house.
    Simple and effective if you know the sun angles and can figure the distance the porch needs to stand away from the home.
    I say porches are great for solar panels, helps offset the air conditioning bills in summer since they are almost always on the south sides.
    We all know what that AC does to the electric bill... :(

    Increasing your thermal envelope and reducing air infiltration will also reduce your heating & AC needs. You should research Passive House (Haus, Passivhaus) design. Super insulated thermal envelope and windows, solar orientation & shading to reduce energy requirements. It's popular in Europe due to their expensive energy costs.

    https://youtu.be/mBOvflXoWlw
     

    Cameramonkey

    www.thechosen.tv
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    May 12, 2013
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    Camby area
    Id be interested.

    I wonder if there is a removable film in lieu of porch roofs for those of us who have a south face with no way to shield the windows. Best Ican do right now is close blackout curtains with white linings.
     

    ajeandy

    Master
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    Oct 25, 2013
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    S. Indianapolis
    I would love to have solar as I'm a big proponent of renewable energy and not relying on "The grid" but my current (first home) isn't worth the investment.

    My next home will be fully powered by solar and have a power pack to store energy.
     
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    Aug 4, 2017
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    Fishers
    I'm interested in sharing the little that I know and hope to learn more. Moving permanently to our property in NC in a few years and I'm hoping to incorporate solar and hydro from the mountain.
     

    ar15_dude

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    Mar 12, 2008
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    Not sure what is in mind about the venue / method to convey solar experience, but I have experience with photovoltaic (PV), gas and diesel generator sets, and have been a consultant on a couple of projects. Just to speed things up, I will share some highlights based on experience. YMMV. Perhaps these points will drive further conversation and questions.

    - A good way to accurately estimate the power and value of a solar system output is here: http://pvwatts.nrel.gov
    - Panel orientation, in terms of being pointed due south and the tilt, does not have a huge impact. It can be estimated by the above web site.
    - PV system costs can be found at http:/wholesalesolar.com
    - Its very hard to make a case for battery (lead acid or lithium) storage. Increases purchase and ongoing costs to result in very expensive kilowatt-hours (kWh). If grid is available, it should be used for grid-tie and as a "virtual battery"
    - For grid down backup operation, a standby gas or propane-fueled standby generator with or without automatic transfer switch is very cost effective.
    - I would not recommend roof mounting, as it defines orientation and requires roof perforations (future leaks). Simple ground mount is very cost effective.
    - Avoid all moving / dynamic mounts, they do not increase production relative to increased cost.
    - Micro inverters simplify wiring into normal 230 VAC and support scalable systems, but are a bit more expensive.
    - Ultimate calculation is kWh cost over life of system, relative to utility rates. By carefully managing installation cost, I can produce electrical power for about 5 cents per kWh, the utility charges me about 13 cents.
    - Panels are improving, panels I purchased in last year have 20% more output than those a year earlier.
    - Federal tax credits are shrinking. Was 30% in 2019 and before, is 26% in 2020, will be 22% in 2021, and zero beginning in 2022.
    - What utilities pay you for excessive energy you produce depends on your utility in Indiana. Unlike most states where utilities pay you what you pay them ("net metering"), Indiana has a poor arrangement due to Senate Bill 309, signed into law in May 2017. In Indiana, you want to size the PV system to so you use all the power you produce, and not subsidize the utility. Result is a smaller size system than you could justify with net metering.

    If you can afford to invest in a PV system ($2000 to $12,000 net), and can install it yourself, it can be a good investment. Like 13% return on investment or 7.5 year investment payback. If you pay to have it installed or use batteries, your PV kWh cost will be greater than what you pay utility.
     

    JeepHammer

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    Aug 2, 2018
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    SW Indiana
    When the 2012 scare was out there, a guy decided to build a 'Doomsday' compound...
    He already owned a private race track west of Indy, when you have that much money... Why not?

    He dug a soup bowl, built concrete shelters in a circle, with ranch style fronts.
    One drain in the middle, which quickly plugged up.

    Half million CAT generator, several 6,000 gallon diesel fuel tanks, etc.
    No provisions for washing clothes, hooked to rural water company, no on site water...

    Of course the rats, racoons, opossums etc got into the dried, high calorie food, some got so far they couldn't get back out the way they came in.
    Used locals to build things, so his big CAT generator disappeared, and what fuel wasn't stolen turned into bacteria thickened sludge...

    On top of it all, he had several vehicles, all gasoline and no gasoline storage tanks.
    You would think with a race track he would have know that for himself.

    I use it as an example of what NOT to do.

    I can't tell anyone what will work in their specific situation...
    If it's SHTF only, then panels on portable racks (folding saw horses work well),
    DC to AC or reduced DC inverter.
    At least you will have *SOME* power in the daytime.
    Processing food (grinding/milling/freezing) and pumping water are a HUGE deal,
    A massive work load for anyone that's done it by hand, which is darn few.

    If you want power all night, it's batteries.
    SILENT power, no generator broadcasting your location, no fuel shortages, darn few 'Spare Parts' needed.
    Works for decades, but is limited by the number of panels and size of battery bank.

    For those of you that are on the grid,
    Grid Intertie. No question.
    Offsets the air conditioning in the summer (big money over time),
    And in a SHTF situation, you simply use DC power from the panels.
    DC works fine over short distances, and DC work motors are cheap & plentiful.
    The trick is to plan ahead,have those DC motors, couplers/adapters and inverters handy.

    The problem with grid intertie is you do about everything twice to have backup/off grid capabilities.
    Both in AC (Grid) and DC (battery/panel power).

    They are building DC battery/Hybrid inverters that work with the more common/less expensive grid Intertie
    inverters, and that lets you 'Gang' inverters together. Reduces cost when you want off grid backup, and I've done this myself.
    I use an off grid (Hybrid) inverter to put the 60 hz 'signal' on my mini-grid, and that unlocks the grid Intertie inverters out at my panel strings.
    I now have an excess of power, even in the short days off winter, for the first time in 25 years I'm actually dumping power instead of watching the battery charge state indicator! Wonderful feeling!

    For those thinking of going off grid, you are your own electrical utility.
    It's MUCH easier than it used to be, no Electrical Engineering degree required.
    Lots of stuff is 'Plug & Play' now, 6 or 8 connections and you are off to the races.

    Batteries have come a LONG WAY over the last 10-15 years, and are viable for a decade or more without serious problems.
    I picked a high charge density battery that's also safe,
    I have shot and punched holes in these batteries with a press, all I got was steam and a little smoke.
    No explosive gasses, no corrosion issues, no longevity problems, degrade about 1-1/2 to 2% a year.
    That makes for a 10-15 year battery bank and still have about 80% capacity.

    There are finer points to consider, like transformer or transformer-less inverters/chargers...
    While transformer-less gives higher returns, less internal consumption,
    They are also less reliable a lot of the time, particularly when they are built with 'China' components.

    We have all seen the old battery chargers, 'Buzz Box' welders on farms that have a big transformer that look like crap, but have been working for 50 years without problems.
    They aren't exactly 'High Efficiency', but they get the job done after lightening strikes, power surges, brown outs & black outs, etc.

    A single (1) full size panel will make a battery powered drill motor work.
    When you think of doing a project during SHTF think about how long it would take to drill 30, or 100 holes.
    The same panel would power a small circular saw or reciprocating saw that had formally been battery powered...
    That's all work you DON'T need 'Armstrong' to do and cuts your project time down considerably.
    It's as simple as gutting the factory battery and attaching wires to the terminals.
    I built more than half my homestead this way, still maintain the 'Back 40' this way.
    Nothing but a car battery and power tools with a cord hanging out of the battery case.
    Since these tools are under $5 at yard sales & junk stores with dead batteries, I keep several in reserve.

    With two vehicle batteries in series, you can stick weld without issues (or MIG weld).
    You need about 18 volts (or a little more) and lots of Amps for stick welding, and 2 vehicle batteries will provide that.
    It's also super smooth DC power, so it makes WONDERFUL welds!

    It's all in your skill/knowledge level,
    What I was suggesting would increase that knowledge level, give you tools in the box for what comes along.
    It's not like they teach this stuff in school, and there are tons of "BoobTube Degrees" out there saying/showing stuff that simply doesn't work, or is stupid dangerous.
    I thought folks that have actually done this for years might share their knowledge, so examples, ect.

    IMG_1404.JPG

    I build a lot of my own components, I've been in machining/manufacture for over 25 years, from the solar field combiner with Under/Over volt protection, automatic fire control shown above,
    To gang cartridge brass annealing shown below,

    image_zpsewbwkiqu.jpg

    Electrical Schematics and wiring diagrams are always helpful, and that's something I have for every project I've done.
    (Plan FIRST, saves doing it 3 times like I had to do before I figured it out!)
     
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