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Thread: EMP projects

  1. #211
    INGO Homebrewer JettaKnight's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    See what I mean?
    Yes, I do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
    Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?

  2. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianasFinest View Post
    An old microwave oven will work as a faraday cage. Buy one at a yard sale for $5, and your good to go.
    Yes but how do I get the car into the microwave?

  3. #213
    INGO Homebrewer JettaKnight's Avatar

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    That was the idea of "Indiana's Finest", huh? That's either ironic or depressing.

    PS - Good job on 50 post, Pyro!

    Usually when that happens you see the INGO'er head off to look at some Glock in the classified, but you? I see your interest lies with a Cattle AI Liquid Nitrogen Semen Tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
    Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?

  4. #214

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    Just some facts about the electromagnetic link & EMP...

    What's now called 'The EMP Effect' ONLY happens in the blast radius of a high order nuclear detonation.
    This was first observed during nuclear detonation testing when generators & vehicles were left RUNNING inside the initial blast zone.
    It was a scientific curiosity for decades.

    WWII military aircraft that delivered two weapons to Japan, and dropped dozens of weapons in testing had ZERO EMP effects, simply because they climbed outside the blast zone.

    When super high powered RADAR was developed, that RADAR effected aircraft when it swept them, the military 'Hardened' or 'Shielded' against high powered RADAR.

    This was no more than a scientific curiosity for decades, until the 1980s when a SCIENCE FICTION writer (incorrectly) linked nuclear detonation EMP to the shielding/hardening of military vehicles.

    A congressman named Trent Franks read that bit of (bad) science fiction, and took it as fact, despite the billions of dollars the FAA & military spent researching the issue.
    Giving the scare tactic EMP Commission rise, which is now been through disproven and the commission is fighting for life...

    Humans haven't been able to produce anything with more energy than an atomic fission bomb, and that's a flyspeck compared to what the earth received from the sun everyday.
    Although bullions were spent trying to develope an EMP weapon, the physics simply are not there to support it.

    The Earth is a big, mostly IRON spinning ball (sorry flat Earth guys ), that MOLTEN iron, spinning produces a magnetic field several BILLION times stronger than anything man made can produce.

    This magnetic field has protected the earth since the iron in the core compressed 4.5 billion years ago.
    The charged particle emissions from the sun, trillions of times stronger than anything humans can produce, are repelled or nutralize by the Earth's magnetic field.

    A magnetic field can ONLY produce an electrical current when the field is MOVING.
    The static magnetic field constantly present on Earth dampens ALL magnetic field movement.

    You MUST MOVE the magnetic field THROUGH AN ELECTRICAL CONDUCTOR to produce an electrical current.
    Either the magnet spins (rotor in an alternator for example) or the magnet moves through an electrical conductor (coil of wire for example).


    A high order nuclear detonation WOULD effect power lines (electrical conductor) INSIDE THE BLAST RADIUS, but no further.
    This might trip substations and/or effect other generating sources since grid power must be balanced against current useage.
    An entire city blacks out, there would be a surge in power surplus that could damage other, remote, generating sources, but it wouldn't be catastrophic.

    I point out INSIDE THE BLAST RADIUS for a reason, if you are at 'Ground Zero' your car running or the toaster working would be the LAST of your problems!...

    Having spent 16 years in the Marines, during the 80s and a good chunk of the 90s, EMP was the 'Boogy Man', the undefendable attack.
    While the military was mandated to spend BILLIONS to protect vehicles, power generators, sensitive electronic equipment, the military contractors were laughing all the way to the bank.
    In the EMP lab, the researchers & testers simply used sheet metal enclosures with laminated 'Fridge magnets stuck to the sheet metal.
    This is in a lab that produces several million times the EMP pulse a high altitude detonation can deliver to the ground.

    Magnetic fields attract, entwine, and cancel each other out.
    The window in your microwave stops more EMPs, of MUCH longer duration (several minutes instead of a couple milliseconds) than most of the contraptions sold to stop EMP.

    The alternator & electric motors in your vehicle create more electrical disruption & magnetic fields than a high altitude nuclear blast can project to the ground.
    Car makers have spent DECADES chasing voltage spikes, putting in over/under voltage protection, blocking stray magnetic fields, etc.
    The common alternator was completely redesigned, motors got line voltage regulators (capacitor), wiring shielded, the computer is shielded in metal instead of plastic, that metal shield is the one thing you can guarantee is chassis 'Grounded'...
    Wiring harnesses were run along metal, engine blocks & body metal, since metal absorbs stray magnetic fields.


    What I worry about are 1s & 0s (ones & zeros).
    Critical control systems can be hacked from anywhere in the world, simply commanding the power grid to overspin over produce and melt the entire system down entirely.

    Our own NSA gave the world the blueprint to infect, detect, and control every type of digital control system, and it's MUCH more effective than any kind of weapons system, and MUCH cheaper also...
    Since the power grid is a series of privately held companies, the government can't force them to spend the money to protect those systems.
    The secure banking information backbone would be a good example of where to start, but they simply refuse to spend ever increasing record profits to secure the networks...

    I don't go Renewable Energy 15 years ago because I was in fear, but I'm glad I have it now!

  5. #215
    Grandmaster rhino's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
    A magnetic field can ONLY produce an electrical current when the field is MOVING CHANGING.
    The static magnetic field constantly present on Earth dampens ALL magnetic field movement.

    You MUST MOVE the magnetic field THROUGH AN ELECTRICAL CONDUCTOR must be changing to produce an electrical current.
    Either the magnet spins (rotor in an alternator for example) or the magnet moves through an electrical conductor (coil of wire for example).
    Fixed it for you. Physical motion is only one way to induce a current, and obviously how voltage and current are induced by generators and alternators. However, the key is a changing magnetic field, regardless of how you accomplish it. The same is true for a changing electric field to induce a magnetic field.

    "The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State."
    Article 1 - Bill of Rights - Section 32


    To prevail you must ACT!

  6. #216

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    MOVING magnetic fields... Or moving conductors through a magnetic fields.
    You can still produce current with all positive poles as long as magnetic field drops between poles.
    (Self rectifying generators)

    Being an old fart, I remember trying to keep commutators alive, still make reasonable money with magnetos & dual point distributors since nobody knows how they work today.

    I'm old enough to remember two big east coast blackouts,
    The last wasn't that long ago and reached from North Carolina to Canada.
    The cause of that one was a local power company buying power from one producer in the daytime, another at night, and they screwed the switch over up, crashed their local grid, it went off line all at once, and that caused cascade failures that expanded outward.
    The New York crash in '77 was very similar, but on a smaller scale.

    It's the production of an EMP without low level nuclear detonation that people can't seem to get a grip on, they all think someone has defied the laws of physics and produced something that will cook every micro circuit in the US all at once, and it's just not possible.

    Yanking the switches of control systems with a single computer command is a LOT more probable and the NSA knows for a fact foreign powers have tested take over software already.

    Some years back, I went home out in the woods, propped up my feet and watched a storm roll in,
    The next day we went about our business and didn't leave the homestead of watch TV,
    On Sunday, my wife & I unplugged my battery powered golf cart from the house battery bank and drive it the 1-1/2 miles to the local bait shop/diner/campground for breakfast...
    It was closed, the church next door was closed on Sunday morning... Curious...
    So we went home and made breakfast, poked around the place a little, then decided to go to town (17 miles) and listened to the radio along the way.
    Our area had been without power from Friday evening, and wasn't supposed to get power for another 7 days!

    Keep in mind, I bought land way down by the river, the power company wanted $15,000 for a ground mount transformer and wouldn't put it anywhere but where I wanted to build the house eventually,
    They wanted to tack $118,000 to my electric bill over the next 20 odd years to run poles, wires & transformers back to my land.
    That's a steep second mortgage before I had a first mortgage!

    I'm almost a mile from the water company main, and they wouldn't talk to me for any price, not even if I ran the line myself.

    I have wells, I have solar, I have a couple little crappy homemade wind turbines. I haven't had a power outage in 13 years,
    I also haven't paid a water bill, electric bill, sewer bill or had to put up with rate hikes... 11 rate hikes in 15 years.
    My solar paid for itself in just over 9 years.
    We have 110VAC home power just like everyone else does, we have AC just like everyone else does, we just make a point to conserve since we produce every watt on site.

    I was forced into solar/wind, i backed into it since I was going to live with kerosene lamps if I had to, but I can tell you I would never do it any other way now.
    Just too simple, too cheap (about $28,000), and I did everything wrong at least twice.
    With the strangle hold big oil & big auto had on battery technology for 100 years broken, I'm upgrading to batteries that *Should* last 20 years or more as I retire my lead/acid batteries...
    If they last 12 years they will be the same cost as lead/acid but give about 3 times as much power return as lead/acid.
    The price is coming down quickly, I wouldn't have near as much in the front end if I hadn't purchased the first batch 1-1/2 years ago for testing, but I'm sold and all lead/acid are getting replaced as they age out.
    I'll be dead or too damn old to worry about it the next time they need replaced, and if push comes to shove, I have 1900s Edison jars and can cast my own plates, I'm NOT doing without AC & central heat!

    I guess it's all in what your priorities are, mine are a comfortable retirement where I don't have to eat dogfood or live in a cardboard box!

  7. #217
    Grandmaster Cameramonkey's Avatar

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    Comms related EMP info. worth a peek even if you arent a HAM and only have some FRS radios stashed in your packs. Spoiler: if they are just sitting in the BOB and not shielded, they could be useless in the event of a man made EMP/natural CME direct hit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Freeman View Post
    A confused cop is an arresty cop.
    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierdoc View Post
    also, where do we sign up to touch Frank's equipment?

  8. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indecision View Post
    An EMP wouldn't make a distributor not work. There's nothing that would be damaged.
    An nuke based EMP strong enough to fry the Hall coil in a distributor trigger would bake YOU into ash.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianasFinest View Post
    Older cars that use as little amounts of electrical components as possiable. You have a much better chance of being able to restore one of them after the event. Likely components that would need replacement would probably be the coil, and distributor maybe more....Anybody ever read the story "Lights Out" by Halffast ? Pretty neat story that is about a EMP strike.
    More science fiction...

    1. Older vehicles used higher amperage DC electronics simply because humans hadn't learned how to control things on much lower currents.
    Less wiring was used simply because first, the Direct Current generators couldn't produce more than about 35 amps without coming apart internally.
    Without the production of power, the power available had to be used for essentials, lights, wipers, ignition.

    2. You didn't see power seats, common power windows, bun warmers, etc until the Alternating Current (AC) Generator was common.
    Previous to that, there might be vacuum powered wipers, hand cranked windows, and heaven forbid, you would have to adjust your seat manually by pulling a leaver...

    Commonly called an 'Alternator' it could easily produce 3 times the power of common DC generators.
    It took the invention & size reduction of SOLID STATE elelctronics before an AC generator could be hung on a DC powered vehicle...
    That bit of technology is called a DIODE, several used together RECTIFY AC into useable DC electrical power.

    3. Early days of ELECTRONIC fuel injection, and even as far back as ignitions, wasn't a picnic it is today...
    Ignition designers didn't consider the LOW VOLTAGE electronic triggers and ran wiring next to spark plugs wires or heater motor wires,
    The didn't understand the electro-magnetic link, and by that I mean electro-magnetic INDUCTION, the principal of an EMP...

    Electro-magnetic Induction, Common called EM NOISE is everywhere under a vehicle hood.
    Now, keep in mind that hood/fenders are METAL, a shield from outside EM (as in EMP), and the pulsing EM NOISE from ignition is MANY times more powerful than an EMP would be at ground level... The earth itself being a natural EM (or EMP) killer.

    4. Now, consider you have a METAL HOOD, FENDERS, FIREWALL,
    The engine block is a magnetic 'Load' or 'Core' that sucks up EM like crazy...

    The companies simply shielded the low voltage sensor & trigger wires from EM/RF by wrapping them in metal foil (under the insulation) and running them along metal to work as a magnetic load...
    Simply TWISTING a DC wire pair kills most EM problems,
    Critical working runs are twisted AND shielded, check out any computer connection cables, twisted & foil wrap shielded....

    Vehicles have DECADES of scrubbing out and fixing EM & RF interference...
    And let's not forget, the wiring runs are SHORT!
    It takes LONG runs of wire to cause serious EM or RF noise interference from an outside source.


    If you think that...
    A. An EMP that will produce a momentary AC pulse, which attacks AC wiring grids will burn through the hood fenders,
    Then burn through the shielding on the wires themselves,
    Then INDUCE (electro-magnetic INDUCTION) an AC pulse in DC electronics strong enough to fry the circuits....

    Then simply run critical FI, ignition & sensor wires through a magnetic metal conduit... Just like the military does to 'Harden' vehicles against EMP.
    Shield the computer with a magnetic metal box.

    Vehicles routinely take LIGHTENING STRIKES without even shutting off...


    Now, if you made it this far and understood any of this NON-SCIENCE FICTION...

    The power grid comprises LONG RUNS of UNSHIELDED CONDUCTORS,
    All up above the mother of all magnetic loads, the earth.

    Since a 'Pulse' is another word for 'Wave', the pulse runs along the long, unprotected conductors and builds up power.
    When it hits a transformer rated for much less power than the wave that hits it, it cooks...

    Look at micro grid or small grid power...
    Solar panels, wind turbines, buried cables (insulated & shielded), and you QUICKLY see they have some hardening inherently.

    EMP doesn't throw photons, so solar survives.
    There isn't enough conductive mass in solar panels to be effected by an EMP.
    Solar is a DC system, much less prone to EM/RF.

    Wind turbines are shielded by the housing of the generator, and have almost instant protection being much newer technology, and being prone to lightening strikes...

    Solar & wind generation are designed for a 'Cascade Failure', what will kill surrounding power grids to the one directly affected.
    The big east coast blackouts were caused by slow/incorrect switching, old mechanical switches.
    Solar & wind use nearly instant solid state switching, and no one unit failing will kill the entire grid.

    This is one reason MANY (including the military) think solar, wind & other renewables are key to defense.
    You can't crash a decentralized power system, while all you need to crash the big grids is something conductive over the wires or blow out a switching station suddenly...


    The other big idiot/science fiction idea is that batteries will be affected.
    Batteries are currently CHEMICAL storage, something that an EMP has exactly ZERO affect on.
    A battery actually works as a huge buffer for sudden current spikes!
    Again, solar & batteries, particularly with new battery technologies, are a very real & viable way to produce & store power in a 'Grid Down' situation...

    The sun shines on the rich & bunkered as well as the common man!

  9. #219

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    This is ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC data presentation reguarding EMP.
    Keep in mind the presenter is trying to sell something, but also keep in mind this is a scientific presentation with actual facts,
    This actual scientist did government & military testing before he started his company.
    No science fiction or Dunning-Kruger here...

    Most notably the ineffective way a 'Faraday Cage' works against EMP,
    and he discusses the inverse Faraday effect in closed metal containers.
    Like I told everyone before, the 'Best' common protection is a closed metal container, no holes,
    Then fight fire with fire! Stick magnets, particularly sheet magnets to the Faraday closed box.
    NOTHING slows/stops/absorbs or redirects a magnetic field like another magnetic field.

    The 'Best' common material is 'Black Iron' sheet metal,
    The random nature of the ferrous iron keeps the absorbed magnetic energy from building, add a layer of magnetic sheeting (door sign magnet material) and you further block any direct magnetic pulse into random pattern that can be redirected or absorbed.

    He CLEARLY explains the long, above ground power lines are in the biggest danger zones, and that ANY breaks in shielding will be an issue,
    So the 'Chicken Wire' and 'metal fencing' cage ideas are completely ineffective...
    Which would be a no-brainer for anyone that knows this is a magnetic wave pulse, and not a lightening strike seeking an earth ground or opposite polarity pole...

  10. #220

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    160 years ago today- On Sep 1-2 1859, the sun had a huge coronal mass ejection that hit Earth causing geomagnetic storms which disrupted the telegraph systems of the day and other effects. The effects today would be much, much more serious.

    The wikipedia entry makes for interesting reading on the "Carrington Event":
    Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases giving telegraph operators electric shocks. Telegraph pylons threw sparks. Some telegraph operators could continue to send and receive messages despite having disconnected their power supplies.

    Which office does Carter Page go to to get his reputation back?

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