More ammo is better?

[jedi]

SOURCE: Suarez International USA email.

Last time we discussed calibers due to some new discussions at warriortalk. It seems some people are still thinking like it was 1911 in terms of terminal ballistics. I think the truth of the matter is that all self defense handgun calibers (excluding the pocket pistol category) are basically the same when it comes to dropping an adversary. That being the case, should we carry a pistol that only holds seven marginal shots, or one that holds as many as twice that number?

I wrote this one a while back and it seems the discussion and emailed questions I got come back to this issue.

Magazine Capacity

I suppose this will be yet another highly controversial issue, but what the heck. Controversy makes for interesting discussion, no? The issue is to look at whether high magazine capacity gives you a tactical advantage, or if we are better served by carrying an equally sized weapon with a smaller capacity of bigger bullets. Before I answer my own question, let me put forth some facts as seen both in force on force training and on the street.

Point One - Pistol bullets, regardless of caliber are all, what one colleague calls, "iffy". None can be guaranteed to drop an adversary in his tracks reliably. The notion of a one shot stop is an urban myth dreamed up by those with a vested interest in such things. I have seen 45s work and fail, and I have seen 9mm both work and fail. For the record, the only one shot drop (excluding head shots) I have ever seen with a pistol was fired by a good friend as we entered a crack house during a SWAT raid. He shot the bad guy squarely in the heart with 9mm +P+ out of a SIG P-226. He only fired once because the bad guy fell before my friend could reset his trigger for the next shot!

If we look at the most prevalent calibers we see that there is very little difference between them. A 9mm (also .38/.357) is only one little millimeter smaller than the 10mm (aka .40 S&W), and that is only one little millimeter less than the vaunted 11mm (aka .45 ACP). And before we get into the high speed light bullet versus the heavy slow bullet argument, lets remember that you can only drive a pistol bullet so fast without drastically affecting its integrity. Moreover, since penetration is affected by weight, sacrificing weight for speed will not yield good results. Finally, you can only make a bullet so light or so heavy. There are limits to what you can shoot out of a pistol.

have seen every one of these calibers fail at one time or another. There are those who disdain the 9mm as unsuitable for anything larger than squirrels. With modern ammunition, this is simply not true. There is also a myth and a cult grown up around the .45 ACP in this country. Sadly, it is not the deadly hammer of god its proponents suggest. This is not new. Read Fairbairn's Shoot To Live. He writes of two separate times when the .45 failed to work any better than anything else. Although one millimeter may give you a slight edge in a less than optimum body hit, under most circumstances, there will be very little difference between the effectiveness of the various calibers when modern anti-personnel ammo is used. Trauma injury doctors and reputable terminal ballistics experts tend to agree with this statement.

Point Two - Private Citizen CCW Operators do not go looking for trouble. If they are called to fight it is either because they have inadvertently crossed paths with bad guys while they are doing bad guy stuff (walking in on a robbery in progress as an example), or because they have been specifically targeted and stalked (such as a carjack, or home invasion event). They will have to use extreme violence to fight off the surprise attackers. When we translate the conversion of fright and startle into a firearm application we wee that definition is high volume of fire. You will shoot a lot, and until the threat is no longer there.

While these events share slightly different dynamics, the common thread often seen is that of multiple adversaries. The lone criminal or terrorist is an urban myth. If your fight only involves one, consider yourself lucky. More often than not you will be outnumbered.

Another point is the time frames in which these events take place. Think three seconds. After this, either you will be dead, or your adversaries will be dead. Urban gunfights do not go for hours. Unexpected, short duration, high intensity, extreme violence, multiple adversaries. That is the back drop.

Point Three - Our staff has collectively been in a large number of gunfights ranging from police, citizen, and military events. We draw on those experiences to set up mock gunfights in dynamic, unscripted force on force training drills. Although the surprise factor is missing (you generally don t know you will be in a gunfight until it is upon you), the dynamics of its evolution do not change much. Here are some other observations from watching hundreds of those drills.

1). Defenders will fire their weapons until the threat disappears. That means that until the role player falls down (simulating effective hits delivered), or runs away (removing the target), the good guy will keep firing. The concept of school solutions, controlled pairs, or otherwise artificially limiting the number of shots (as one does in a firing string on the range) does not hold up even in guys who've been extensively trained to do it.

2). When a training gun stops firing (due to running out of pellets), the shooter is still in the fight and still trying to shoot his enemy as well as trying to not be hit by him. We see them continue to try to work the trigger for one or two times before there is a realization that there has been a stoppage (malfunction or empty gun). This is followed by a visual examination of the gun, and only then is remedial action taken.

This can take upwards f a second and a half before anything is even attempted to fix the gun, and then the additional time needed to reload. Thus the idea that one can read the gun s feel and immediately realize a need to speed load simply does not hold up. Running out of ammo is usually a fight ender if there has been a failure to stop, or there are multiple adversaries at hand.

3). Participants in these reactive mock gunfights are debriefed immediately to get a clear picture of what happened before any rationalization takes place. Besides a shoot them to the ground firing process, most shooters do not remember seeing the crystal clear sight pictures they learned on the shooting range.

We see a great deal of point shooting, and gun index shooting. I have yet to see anyone strike a classic shooting posture and press off a carefully sighted pair in these room distance drills.

The point to remember is that in a fight such as what are likely for the private citizen, one can easily develop Bullet Deficit Disorder , and that this can have deleterious effects on the outcome of that fight.

The idea that a pair or trio of quality rounds carefully delivered onto a high scoring target zone will stop the action fails both the terminal ballistics test as well as the applications test.

A truth of gunfighting - Having more ammo immediately on board lessens the likelihood of ever needing to reload. Not needing to reload translates into more time delivering lead and less time manipulating the weapon. More trigger time increases likelihood of hitting, which increases survivability.

So the question is this. Given that there is a limit to the size pistol one can carry, do I want that pistol to hold more rounds? My answer is a strong YES!

Consider the similarly sized Glock 36 in .45 ACP, and the Glock 23 in .40 S&W. The latter holds nearly twice the ammo of the former in an almost identical package. The Glock 19 is an even more drastic comparison with 15 shots available. Of course there are also high capacity 45 pistols for those so inclined and for those who can wield them. I would argue that if your choice is a 45, a gun holding 13 would be better than a gun holding 6. And if your hand is too small for the 13 shooter, rather than decrease capacity, I d decrease caliber.

I have a colleague is South America who has been in High Risk Police Service for close to three decades. He has been in over three dozen verified gunfight . His weapon was originally a Browning Hi-Power and later a Glock 17.

I was very interested in hearing more so I asked him about the load he used. He said he had always used military ball full metal jacket. Astounded I asked him why he chose that. That is all we can get here. Hollow points are illegal .

I shook my head and told him that there was a belief in the USA that 9mm was an anemic caliber, especially in the load he d chosen. He shrugged and said that his adversaries must not have gotten the word. He said he fired a burst at the chest and if they didn't fall fast enough, he fired a burst at the face. He never needed to reload and had enough on board so if he missed a shot or two he could catch up in the fight. And before we hear the careful shooter versus the spraying prayer, this man is one of the best shots I have seen and competes on an international level. Even so, he knows the chaos in a gunfight can play havoc with even the most gifted marksman. Perhaps we need to take a lesson from him.

I still carry a Glock 17 with 17 rounds of Corbon DPX ammo in 9mm.

Gabe Suarez

One Source TacticalSuarez International USA
Christian Warrior Ministries

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to
send peace on earth: I came not to send peace,
but a sword.

hum.. not sure. I carry a 1911 7 + 1 and this has always bother me but I'm not willing to downgrade to .40 or 9mm. So perhaps I need to look into those "plastic" guns *cough* glocks *cough* in .45. Just not sure i like the way they feel and they are rather "fat".

Perhaps a skinny 9mm with 20+ rounds? Any "skinny" type guns out there? Skinny like the slimness of the 1911?

 

[NateIU10]

If you were looking Glock, I'd say look into a 21SF for it's reduced hump and 13+1 of 45

Summit Gun Broker has a pretty good deal on NIB LEO 21SF right now too

ETA: Firearms, Guns, Rifles. Grain Valley, Missouri.

 

[glockguy07]

Go with a glock 17/19 or 21sf -

You're not losing anything in going with 9mm or .40 as the article explains

 

[Joe Williams]

There are times I almost think he is advocating spray and pray. True enough, it often happens that way, but I think it's a sign of poor training, and is surely a good way to find yourself in jail for shooting a bystander in an otherwise righteous shoot, and/or sued into everlasting poverty because you dropped 15 rounds downrange.

 

[ATM]

Go handle an XDm 9mm or .40 if you convince yourself that it's not downgrading. 19+1 and 16+1 capacity respectively with a backstrap adjustable grip, match grade barrel, short reset trigger and a grip safety which you are already used to.
XD in .45 holds 13+1 and has the set grip size of the XDm with the largest backstrap.

Having the extra capacity does not make you spray, it just lets you continue firing with less reloads.

ETA: You are already used to the (proper) grip angle as well.

 

[Lt. Commander]

Sounds like an exaggerated excuse for a lack of practiced tactics, mind set and shot placement. Spray and pray you hit something...


Scott

 

[jedi]

Sorry boys & girls I'll never go GLOCK. That is the DARK SIDE.
I guess I'll use this as an excuse to go to the Crown Point, IN Gun Show perhaps this coming weekend and try the XDs or something else in both 45 and 9mm. No takes to the .40.

I want to keep to ammo that is avaliable all the time should the STHF and post Katrina reports showed that .40 was not avaliable or all under water. 9MM was everywhere followed by 45. Not "trilled" at this point of 9MM but it may grow on me perhaps.

Still think that more practice is what you really need and not just more firing.

 

[shooter521]

There are times I almost think he is advocating spray and pray.

IMO, there's a difference between "shooting the badguy to the ground" and "spray and pray".

Here is the kind of technique Gabe seems to advocate:
YouTube - Advanced Close Range Gunfighting

 

[henktermaat]

Great read, thanks.

 

[Rob377]

IMO, there's a difference between "shooting the badguy to the ground" and "spray and pray".

Here is the kind of technique Gabe seems to advocate:
YouTube - Advanced Close Range Gunfighting

+1

I think many are missing the point and misreading the article.

His point is "quick, placed shots until the bad guy stops"
Sometimes a double tap is not enough. Sometimes a textbook failure to stop drill isn't possible. Sometimes 8 might not be enough. (unlike the TV show)
Like this guy
22 hits with .40, 17 center mass, and still kept fighting.
Officer Down - The Peter Soulis Incident

arguing about "stopping power" among pistol cartridges is like privates arguing about rank, so don't expect 2-3 or even 8 shots to do the job.

There is an advantage to being able to fire more rounds without stopping to reload, particularly when engaging multiple targets.

 

[ATM]

Sorry boys & girls I'll never go GLOCK. That is the DARK SIDE.

Oh there is some rep just waiting to happen. I will give the good kind.


Back to the point of the article, advocating a vehicle with a larger gas tank in no way implies that you should forget good driving practices and just burn rubber till you run it dry.

 

[JByer323]

:sigh:

Carry what you're good with. Carry what you like. Practice with what you carry.

 

[Rob377]

:sigh:

Carry what you're good with. Carry what you like. Practice with what you carry.

+1

I like 1911s, practice with 1911s and shoot 1911s best. If my LTCH would ever get here, I'd carry a 1911.

That all said, I think Gabe's point is well taken and certainly worth considering and discussing. Obviously, each will make his/her own call on the issue, but considering more info and a well reasoned differing viewpoint never hurt.

 

[ATM]

I suspect that if you decided to get something new and practiced with it, you would get good at it, then you would like it, then you would want to carry it.

 

[esrice]

:sigh:

Practice with what you carry.

For all you 1911 guys, that means practice mag changes.

 

[JByer323]

For all you 1911 guys, that means practice mag changes.

When your Glock explodes, you're going to come running to us. It's ok though, even with all your blasphemy, you'll still be welcome.

 

[esrice]

When your Glock explodes, you're going to come running to us. It's ok though, even with all your blasphemy, you'll still be welcome.

Love it!


You guys are so nice!

 

[NateIU10]

I love my Glock. I love my 1911. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a BG with either, but I choose to carry my Glock. It's personal choice/preference.




Besides, it saves me having to lug around so many extra mags

 

[jedi]

When your Glock explodes, you're going to come running to us. It's ok though, even with all your blasphemy, you'll still be welcome.

<<This next one hits below the belt but...>
Besides you Glock lovers, your HI-CAP magazines is Public Enemy Number 1 for our beloved President which means you'll have to come running to our 1911s.

 

[JByer323]

Besides, it saves me having to lug around so many extra mags

Yeah, but you also don't get that Tacticool look of having a couple dozen mag carries on your belt either.