LAV- Low light home defense video

[themadmedic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcrysTdKKc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[shooter521]

Hey, that's not James Yeager!

 

[bwframe]

Interesting.

Thoughts:
Scenario was moving to kids after bump or crash in the night.
Weapon light was the only light when using the long gun.
Always moving with guns pointed in direction of movement.
Is leading with your muzzle the best idea when heading for the kids when no threat is identified?

 

[esrice]

Hey, that's not James Yeager!

Then I want my money back!

Great video, lots of good solid advice.

I STRONGLY disagree with his characterization of the jaw (neck) index. I find it easier to maneuver (as opposed to being locked up in Harries), quicker to negotiate corners, and backlighting the sights actually makes it much easier to shoot.

The idea that a badguy is going to "focus on the light" is overplayed for civilian defense IMO. Perhaps its an issue in war or during a prolonged gunfight, but not for clearing a home. And if that were an issue, then where do you suppose the light is in relationship to your head when its 12 o'clock on the end of your long gun? Right in front of your head. . . . .

 

[Jackson]

I have to disagree with him on one point: When shooting in low light I find it easiest to shoot while holding the light up next to my head and shooting the pistol one handed. I shine the light over the top of the gun. It does somewhat illuminate the gun, but rather than making it more difficult to shoot, it illuminates the sites and I find I get better hits.

I understand his point about having the light next to your head and that is where they will be shooting. However, I don't think that having the light projected out with the gun, which if I am using my sights correctly, will be an arms length directly in front of my eye, will be that much of an improvement. Either way the guy is shooting at me.

I am not an experienced low-light shooter, though. This is just from playing around at the range. Unfortunately, low light range time is difficult to come by.

 

[Jackson]

Then I want my money back!

Great video, lots of good solid advice.

I STRONGLY disagree with his characterization of the jaw (neck) index. I find it easier to maneuver (as opposed to being locked up in Harries), quicker to negotiate corners, and backlighting the sights actually makes it much easier to shoot.

The idea that a badguy is going to "focus on the light" is overplayed for civilian defense IMO. Perhaps its an issue in war or during a prolonged gunfight, but not for clearing a home. And if that were an issue, then where do you suppose the light is in relationship to your head when its 12 o'clock on the end of your long gun? Right in front of your head. . . . .

It appears that Mr. Rice and I have similar thoughts on the subject. And it seems we had them at about the same time as well.

 

[esrice]

It appears that Mr. Rice and I have similar thoughts on the subject. And it seems we had them at about the same time as well.

 

[shooter521]

I'd be interested in getting Tinman's take on this, as he has quite a bit of low-light FoF and live-fire training under his belt, IIRC.

 

[themadmedic]

Agree with comments above about light position-particularly if using intermittent bursts of light and moving.

 

[Tinman]

I'd be interested in getting Tinman's take on this, as he has quite a bit of low-light FoF and live-fire training under his belt, IIRC.

Just remember, you asked.

There's way to much training artificiality in this. He sets up this scenario where something goes bump in the night, and you head for the kids. Presumably something has drawn your attention to the kids or you'd be clearing your house right. But that's not the scenario he set, you're headed for the kids. Are you really going to do a slow methodical search and assess while the kids scream?

With all due respect to Larry, his background and training methodology is based around teams and offensive actions. This is a totally different context than a solo operator driving through a space to secure his family.

As far as light placement, YES lights get shot REGULARLY!!!! even in civilian context, even with trained and untrained shooters in play. So what does that mean, the principles of movement, living behind the cover of the muzzle, and accurate first hits are just as important. It's a risk and reward proposition. If we simply said never put a light in relation to the head, then we'd never run a weapon mounted light (long gun or pistol) because it puts the light right in front of your face. Come to think of it, don't most handgun associated techniques put that light right in front of your face? Of course that light might stop the bullet.... right.

My suggestion is to develop 2 techniques (one for left side, and one for right side cover/concealment) that you can shoot well, then run the snot out of them and be able to shoot just as accurately and effectively with them. I'm a big fan of the handheld light strobing for search work, and a weapon mounted light and laser combo when it comes time to go to guns on someone. From everything I've seen to date in both live actions, and FoF this combo dramatically increases the operators survivability in a gun fight. The ability to drop the handheld, and fire using a 2 hand grip while moving is invaluable.

bwframe - always lead with the muzzle. you're moving into an un secured area with a potential threat, I can't think of a single reason not to.

Bypassing and porting are the best techniques I've found for this type of scenario. It would take a lot of space to lay that out clearly, and how it relates to pace and movement in solo work.

Visit Southnarc and his AMIS (armed movement inside structures) class. It is the only class I have seen specifically designed around a civilian solo operator context. It is the best 2 days you can spend.

Just a side note, these types of things are the difference between shooters, and tacticians.

There's about a metric poo-ton worth of information on low light work, it is a study unto itself. I'd recommend Ken Good, or Southnarc as probably the best subject matter experts for you to look up.

Just my 2-cents, feel free to pm or post if you've got any questions.

Tinman....

PS. Of course we haven't even touched on what if you do make contact with someone during this movement, and what do you do if they are compliant..... now's when it gets interesting, and send the brain into meltdown!

 

[bwframe]

bwframe - always lead with the muzzle. you're moving into an un secured area with a potential threat, I can't think of a single reason not to.

OK, so who ends up getting shot more? Serious threats or innocent family members?

 

[shooter521]

Just remember, you asked.

I did, and I'm glad I did; I greatly value your input and experience on this and many other subjects. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[Tinman]

OK, so who ends up getting shot more? Serious threats or innocent family members?

Now that depends on the shooter, and their proficiency level. The sequence doesn't change because it's in your house at night in low light:

Locate
ID
Engage if necessary

Fail to follow those step, well we'll just say FAIL!

Also keep in mind, you shouldn't be searching through the sights. The weapon should be up, and prepared to engage, but you need to be looking at the area, not the sight. I've seen a ton of guys "searching through the tube" with their carbine, it never ends well. Usually it results in one of 2 things, good guy shot because he was to slow in finding and ID'ing the threat, or a mistaken ID that results in a bad shoot. Neither of those is really preferable.

Tinman....

 

[cedartop]

Just remember, you asked.

There's way to much training artificiality in this. He sets up this scenario where something goes bump in the night, and you head for the kids. Presumably something has drawn your attention to the kids or you'd be clearing your house right. But that's not the scenario he set, you're headed for the kids. Are you really going to do a slow methodical search and assess while the kids scream?

With all due respect to Larry, his background and training methodology is based around teams and offensive actions. This is a totally different context than a solo operator driving through a space to secure his family.

As far as light placement, YES lights get shot REGULARLY!!!! even in civilian context, even with trained and untrained shooters in play. So what does that mean, the principles of movement, living behind the cover of the muzzle, and accurate first hits are just as important. It's a risk and reward proposition. If we simply said never put a light in relation to the head, then we'd never run a weapon mounted light (long gun or pistol) because it puts the light right in front of your face. Come to think of it, don't most handgun associated techniques put that light right in front of your face? Of course that light might stop the bullet.... right.

My suggestion is to develop 2 techniques (one for left side, and one for right side cover/concealment) that you can shoot well, then run the snot out of them and be able to shoot just as accurately and effectively with them. I'm a big fan of the handheld light strobing for search work, and a weapon mounted light and laser combo when it comes time to go to guns on someone. From everything I've seen to date in both live actions, and FoF this combo dramatically increases the operators survivability in a gun fight. The ability to drop the handheld, and fire using a 2 hand grip while moving is invaluable.

bwframe - always lead with the muzzle. you're moving into an un secured area with a potential threat, I can't think of a single reason not to.

Bypassing and porting are the best techniques I've found for this type of scenario. It would take a lot of space to lay that out clearly, and how it relates to pace and movement in solo work.

Visit Southnarc and his AMIS (armed movement inside structures) class. It is the only class I have seen specifically designed around a civilian solo operator context. It is the best 2 days you can spend.

Just a side note, these types of things are the difference between shooters, and tacticians.

There's about a metric poo-ton worth of information on low light work, it is a study unto itself. I'd recommend Ken Good, or Southnarc as probably the best subject matter experts for you to look up.

Just my 2-cents, feel free to pm or post if you've got any questions.

Tinman....

PS. Of course we haven't even touched on what if you do make contact with someone during this movement, and what do you do if they are compliant..... now's when it gets interesting, and send the brain into meltdown!

Excellent Tinman!

Of course, while good, Southnarc isn't the only one out there with that type of class.
Suarez International USA, Inc. - CQB - Fighting In Structures

 

[bwframe]

Now that depends on the shooter, and their proficiency level. The sequence doesn't change because it's in your house at night in low light:

Locate
ID
Engage if necessary

Fail to follow those step, well we'll just say FAIL!

Also keep in mind, you shouldn't be searching through the sights. The weapon should be up, and prepared to engage, but you need to be looking at the area, not the sight. I've seen a ton of guys "searching through the tube" with their carbine, it never ends well. Usually it results in one of 2 things, good guy shot because he was to slow in finding and ID'ing the threat, or a mistaken ID that results in a bad shoot. Neither of those is really preferable.

Tinman....

Yes, this is where my question lies.

As much as we encourage training, there is still "Operator Joe Sixpack" who already knows everything (and just a little more.) He has his total focus on the equipment that will save the day rather than his knowledge of what to do. He is likely "house clearing" with his weapon light, finger on the trigger. He is itching to become another statistic that will not only harm his family/friends, but the rest of us also.

I fear that encouraging muzzle forward searching does more harm than good.

 

[Stainer]

This could be looked at a lot of different ways and there will be a lot of different opinions. I think the best piece of advice that he gave was to have a plan! It doesn't matter what the plan is, have one and execute it with the ability to be flexible based on changes that may develop.

Larry wasn't concerned because his kids were screaming, Larry was concerned because he had kids in the house and he wanted them to be protected which is why he moved to their room and then was going to hunker down and call for help.

Everyone's scenario is going to be different based on resources, occupants, house layout, and weapon. Like I previously stated, just have a plan.

I'll give mine because I have rehearsed it before and put it into action. I live in a single story house with a girlfriend and two dogs. My bedroom is at the front of my house. My dogs sleep in the room with us with the bedroom door open so they are free to roam (I feel this gives them a little more freedom to assess any noise I may not hear so that they can alert me). If I hear something I'm curious of, I grab my pistol and light which are bedside, quietly let my girlfriend know(she could sleep through anything). She sits with the phone dialed to 9-1-1 ready to hit send on her cell phone if she hears anything she doesn't like (struggle or me yelling). My door is already open so I make my way through my hallway. Clear my entry, kitchen, living room then move to the back two bedrooms/bathroom. Stand off to the side of the hallway with my ear to the hallway listening to see if I can still hear noise and which room it is coming from. Clear the bedrooms and bathroom, move to garage. Clear garage. Call it clear. Check the cameras for anything, get back to sleep.

The only changes in this are if I hear someone actively trying to get in. In which I instruct her to get in the closet where there is a bullet proof vest for her to cover up with and another firearm and I tell her to call 9-1-1 and give them my description so that they don't shoot me. She stays there until I come back for her.

Either way, we have a plan and we know how to execute it.

No matter how you prefer to hold your flashlight or which weapon you want to use. Have a plan in place and practice it when there is no threat so that when there is a threat, you know what to do.

 

[esrice]

This is a great thread. Be back later with some thoughts.

 

[cedartop]

The Third Eye Principle and Fluidity

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There is no way to "search and clear" or "hunt and kill" efficeintly and effectively with a handgun without a thorough understanding and confident application of five key factors.
​

1) Mitigating exposure; this is about using the correct body mechanics to make sure that the gun and the gun eye take the corner before anything else. ​

2) The retention concept; this fits in with mitigating exposure. Only project the gun as far as the situation will safely allow.​

3) The ready positions; this fits in with the retention concept but is not just about the projection of the gun. It is about being in the very best position to fight from. We consider the low ready obsolete because it simply does not put the gun in the optimal position.​

4) Ambidextrous work; this fits in with the ready positions. Your handgun just needs to be an extension of your mind and you should be able to transfer it (including with a flashlight) at the subconscious level. You should also be "completely" ambidextrous and not just partially ambidextrous.​

5) Fluidity and the ability to adapt; all of this needs to flow like water. Since there are "no hard rules" we also need to be able to adapt to the every changing situations. The third eye principle may be the optimal principle, but it is not always possible or the wisest thing to do. Sometimes you have to quick check the eyes without the gun following due to additonal areas of danger that are of lesser concern. ​

You can not eliminate the risks.......all you can do is mitigate the risks.​

Roger Phillips​

Every step you take, every action you execute, should serve to get your eye and gun muzzle on your target.
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Gabe Suarez
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