21' Tueller Drill Options

[j706]

Here you will find a decent common sense vid on the Tueller drill. It brings up some good points that I do not hear discussed much.

The Tueller Drill -- Scenario from The Best Defense - YouTube

 

[esrice]

Michael Bane, Mike Seeklander, Mike Janich, Marty Hayes-- that's a lot of big names for one video. Really enjoyed it.

I think the big stand out lesson to me was said in the last few seconds of the video-- "other skills" are every bit as important as "shooting skills". As gun guys we tend to be very gun focused and can neglect other important areas of training, like combatives or medical skills.

At Mindset Lab we have a Firearms Combatives and Retention course and folks often scoff at the mere idea of striking someone with a pistol. Why would I ever do that when I can simply shoot them? is the question asked. I think this video shows one great example of when such a tactic can be utilized to good effect.

FTR, if Mike Janich ever threatens me with a knife I'm shooting him from 50 feet.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

FTR, if Mike Janich ever threatens me with a knife I'm shooting him from 50 feet.

You're braver than me, then

For some reason I keep getting an error when I try to watch the video.

 

[jdhaines]

I can't watch the video at work, but I'll make one comment. I think everyone would be well served by reading the actual tueller article. It isn't that long. I've seen some of the most convoluted, made up, back-ass-wards methods of getting across the idea of the tueller drill. The worst has been in NRA training. The best has included training knives and sim/airsoft pistols. Many classes show something in between that doesn't actually show the student anything useful.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

We do the Tueller drill during our Intro to Defensive Pistol course. The student has the SIRT laser pistol in a holster, under concealment. I go 21 feet down the hallway with a paper knife. They KNOW it's coming! But very few people can draw and shoot before I can stick them with the knife, and I'm an old fat guy! Some manage to get a shot or two off, but there's no way they would stop my momentum. We do this to show them 21 feet is a myth, and that people often over-estimate their own ability. We teach students to set their own, realistic limits based on alert levels and situational awareness.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Solid, well rounded video that shows multiple ways to react to the Tueller drill. I appreciate the OP and the knowledge / opinions shared.

 

[DustyDawg48]

FTR, if Mike Janich ever threatens me with a knife I'm shooting him from 50 feet.

I think Mike Janich is what hides in Chuck Norris' beard... and 50' may not be far enough!

 

[Coach]

Some questions to ponder or discuss:
How does concealed carry relate to this drill?
Would OC be advantageous in this situation?
How does work on the draw stroke relate to this drill?
How does holster position relate to this drill or situation?
How does situational awareness relate to this drill or situation?

 

[j706]

Some questions to ponder or discuss:
How does concealed carry relate to this drill?
Would OC be advantageous in this situation?
How does work on the draw stroke relate to this drill?
How does holster position relate to this drill or situation?
How does situational awareness relate to this drill or situation?

Time and time again I have proven to others at the range with live fire that OC vs CC matters zero to little for the properly trained. But that is a entire different argument that becomes to heated to even discuss on an open forum.

 

[Coach]

Time and time again I have proven to others at the range with live fire that OC vs CC matters zero to little for the properly trained. But that is a entire different argument that becomes to heated to even discuss on an open forum.

Clearing a garment and reaching further back on the body is going to take more time than a 3 O'clock position in the open. No matter who you are and what your level of training. The tenth of a second difference may seem small issue on the clock, but could mean the difference between life and death. But all the tactical types will say concealed is the way to go.

 

[cedartop]

Clearing a garment and reaching further back on the body is going to take more time than a 3 O'clock position in the open. No matter who you are and what your level of training. The tenth of a second difference may seem small issue on the clock, but could mean the difference between life and death. But all the tactical types will say concealed is the way to go.

What you say is pretty common sense Coach. Even in a fast carry position like appendix, it will still take that small amount of time longer to clear a cover garment. What is more important in this situation, and the possible difference maker in the outcome, is getting off of the train tracks.

 

[Josh Ward]

What is more important in this situation, and the possible difference maker in the outcome, is getting off of the train tracks.

You mean the standard slowly backing straight up and shooting isn't gonna work ???? ;-)

 

[cosermann]

...What is more important in this situation, and the possible difference maker in the outcome, is getting off of the train tracks.

Yup, critical.

 

[Coach]

What you say is pretty common sense Coach. Even in a fast carry position like appendix, it will still take that small amount of time longer to clear a cover garment. What is more important in this situation, and the possible difference maker in the outcome, is getting off of the train tracks.

I agree. Getting off the X is necessary. Not wasting time clearing my "shoot me vest" would help. Carrying the gun in a position that makes the draw stroke smooth and streamlined would help. I thought the situational awareness in the video was too staged. I doubt most people walking into a high school game, or the mall would have picked up on the hidden hand that fast.

Many people cannot draw and hit the target in 1.5 seconds and that is not drawing from cover. Many more people who get the shot off in 1.5 seconds won't be aiming that shot and will have no idea where it goes.

 

[rhino]

In our most recent force on force class, I chose to make Teuller-like drills a main part of the scenarios in the afternoon. I think I'll include it in all of our classes in the future because we all learned quite a bit from it because its simplicity and the potential that it could be a part of many different self-defense situations. Obviously the students who had experience had an edge, and it was good to see how well movement works ... if you choose your direction(s) wisely.

 

[j706]

In our most recent force on force class, I chose to make Teuller-like drills a main part of the scenarios in the afternoon. I think I'll include it in all of our classes in the future because we all learned quite a bit from it because its simplicity and the potential that it could be a part of many different self-defense situations. Obviously the students who had experience had an edge, and it was good to see how well movement works ... if you choose your direction(s) wisely.

One of my biggest struggles with my (our) guys is getting them to move. I have a hard time figuring it out. We can put them through simunitions and it isn't much different. Some of them want to just stand there. I have been tempted so many times to just run up and kick them in their a--!!

 

[lovemachine]

I've never done the drill before, but have seen it done.

What I saw, scared the crap outta me. I'll admit, I'm screwed if faced in that situation...

 

[BuckCreek]

Some questions to ponder or discuss:
How does concealed carry relate to this drill?
Would OC be advantageous in this situation?
How does work on the draw stroke relate to this drill?
How does holster position relate to this drill or situation?
How does situational awareness relate to this drill or situation?

Good questions. Just my thoughts on each one:

How does concealed carry relate to this drill?
I definitely gives you more options in defending yourself in a situation like this. I would say thought that is is important to not rely solely on CC for situations like this, much more goes into increasing your chances of survival.

Would OC be advantageous in this situation?
Maybe, maybe not, depending. It might be a deterrent to some if they noticed, and it might give you a slightly faster draw. If the attacker is targeting you specifically or determined it might cause them to take more care in closing the distance and avoiding initial detection. Also if they intend to harm as many people as possible you may be the 1st target if they see you are armed. Hard to say. I would suggest do what you are most comfortable with, most trained with, and what you do normally.

How does work on the draw stroke relate to this drill?
With good draw stroke you could have your weapon at the ready and able to fire almost as soon as you have it out of the holster. Also practice on draw stroke will make for a faster draw. Time is precious in this situation.

How does holster position relate to this drill or situation?
Time is essential in this situation, so if your gun is holstered in a position you are unfamiliar with, that is awkward to access quickly, could get hung up in clothing, etc. it could be bad. For example: if you are using an ankle holster it would be difficult to draw in time, and would put you in a very bad position. Another example would be if you had to clear a garment with your off hand, that takes that hand out of play while accessing your weapon. This one is complicated and there are a lot of things that could come into play. It is definitely something everyone should think about.

How does situational awareness relate to this drill or situation?
This is perhaps the most important piece, and your first line of defense. Without good situational awareness you wouldn't even notice the individual or the potential weapon until he was next to you stabbing you. In a good number of fights involving a knife the victim does not even no a knife was in play until they are bleeding. Alex Haddox covers knife attacks very well in his Practical Defense podcast Episode 17 ( http://media.libsyn.com/media/practicaldefense/Practical_Defense_-_Episode_17.mp3 ). Knives are small, fast, and easily concealable even while striking with them. Without good situational awareness you might as well be unarmed, blind, and deaf.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks for posing the questions. I like thinking about defensive situations, so that if I am ever in a situation I have at least thought about it or something similar. That will hopefully increase my chances to react appropriately and effectively, not just freeze. Thus increasing my chances of a better outcome for me and those I might be responsible for defending.

Also, thanks to the OP for posting the video and starting this thread.

 

[BuckCreek]

I've never done the drill before, but have seen it done.

What I saw, scared the crap outta me. I'll admit, I'm screwed if faced in that situation...

I have participated in this drill many times when I was taking martial arts (Songahm style Taekwondo). It still boggles my mind how fast someone can close that distance and get multiple slashes or stabs in on you before you can get clear or even react to the attack. We used black rubber knives that left marks on your white uniform. Even when you did everything as correctly as you could and as fast as you could react there were almost always marks on your uniform, usually in places that would not be good to be stabbed or slashed in. This type of attack still scares me, and should pretty much anyone.

I can't remember exactly how he said it, but my instructor used to say something like: No matter how good you are at defending against knife attacks if the attacker knows what they are doing odds are you will be cut or stabbed, and at best you will be able to choose where you are cut or stabbed.

 

[jdhaines]

Another thing people forget...even if you get lethal shots on them at the same time they get to you...they can continue because handgun shots (and all shots for that matter) are very rarely immediately incapacitating.

Unless, of course, you are shooting a .45 in which they will vaporize and the bad guy behind him will catch fire. (note the lack of purple...I've seen it!)