Gun v Knife experts

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • YoungMilsurpGuy

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 18, 2013
    436
    43
    Crown Point
    Interesting video showing how actually skilled knife and gun experts would go at it

    [video=youtube;2fjMpn7JCJ0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLii2ayBrdM_6Pkld-K5sgJ0XxwI_RSy7e&v=2fjMpn7JCJ0[/video]

    Makes you want to learn to do some stuff about adding level changes to your CCW technique, sorta reminds me of some stuff I saw on a Gabe Saurez AK video about getting of teh x. Something like a basic side breakfall from judo would probably work wonders in this situation.

    And another thought after watching this video, Why do people like to use carry guns with such little handles or grips? I mean, whats the use of having one on you if you cant easily get it out of the holster or hang on to it well if your are moving around
     
    Last edited:

    The Bubba Effect

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    May 13, 2010
    6,221
    113
    High Rockies
    Great video. Thank you for posting that. I have considered the value of dropping to the ground to draw if charged with a knife. I'm sure it's not all peaches and creme, since you are on the ground where you can be kicked and pinned, can't maneuver as much, etc. That's true, but as the video shows, it makes some space and changes the plane the attacker is working on. Good food for thought.
     

    DIRTROAD

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 11, 2013
    555
    18
    Very good video , I have always been taught to address the knife first before going for gun,going to ground does by time
     

    YoungMilsurpGuy

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 18, 2013
    436
    43
    Crown Point
    Also, just thinking out loud here, instead of going to the ground, what about doing a very quick take off to the left, then moving forward and drawing and trying to get some quatering or sideways shots in when the guy with the knifes over committed. Just what Im spitballing here, especially with a higher energy or velocity round, a perpendicular shot center of mass is going to be able to hit alot more stuff and do alot more damage, I.E. Heart, both lungs, aorta, that major artery under you arm, and spine.
     

    ol' Huff

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 8, 2012
    567
    28
    since he is moving forward and you are turning around he is probably going to be able to change direction better than you are anyway, so sidestepping might not get you very far.

    When we play with stuff like this in the dojo using airsoft a couple things seem to pop up.

    1. If the attack is frontal a drawstroke initiated from a distance greater than 18 feet (without retreating) usually results in first shot hits in the A-Zone.
    2. An attack from inside of 18 feet (with retreating) can still result in an A-Zone first shot hit if the gunhandler has a passable drawstroke and discipline trigger squeeze.
    3. A frontal attack inside of 18 feet (without retreating) usually results in a gut shot.
    4. Attacks from the rear are tough, and the knifer usually got a stick in if the shooter did not move forward to increase the distance. They usually resulted in a gutshot.
    5. This video kinda shows how far we have gotten philosophically. We realized that if the attacker is coming from behind or is inside of 14 to 18 feet making space for the draw is the biggest deal. Taking a rear break fall and bringing up the off foot (if your are flexible enough) creates distance and gives you something to stuff the charge with (aim for the hip bone). We are focused on something else no so haven't taken it farther but will probably pick it up again this spring and try to take the exercise further.
     

    YoungMilsurpGuy

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 18, 2013
    436
    43
    Crown Point

    Reminds me of this nick Dross guy's video and what my judo teacher said: "Even if you have a gun, if someone is within fist fighting, watch their hands and if their hand goes into their pocket or back to reach something, dont even try to go for a gun or a knife if you have one, but go premtive and grab the hand thats reaching, get in close so he cant draw, and go for something like hammerfists or eye gouges or a punch to the throat or headbut and try to slam him into a wall or over something or otherwise try to knock him down"

    Though if your not in decent shape or very agile or the guys alot bigger, well your kinda screwed. Seems to me that if you try to engage another guy with a knife, your just gonna get cut to, and the best option is try to keep him from drawing it and using that moment of opportunity to knock him out or break a joint or otherwise disable him

    Seems to me self defense isnt just having a gun, but involves just as much situtational awareness, hand to hand skill, and physical fitness, I.E. I need to get into the gym more often and back on the mat
     
    Last edited:

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Reminds me of this nick Dross guy's video and what my judo teacher said: "Even if you have a gun, if someone is within fist fighting, watch their hands and if their hand goes into their pocket or back to reach something, dont even try to go for a gun or a knife if you have one, but go premtive and grab the hand thats reaching, get in close so he cant draw, and go for something like hammerfists or eye gouges or a punch to the throat or headbut and try to slam him into a wall or over something or otherwise try to knock him down"

    Though if your not in decent shape or very agile or the guys alot bigger, well your kinda screwed. Seems to me that if you try to engage another guy with a knife, your just gonna get cut to, and the best option is try to keep him from drawing it and using that moment of opportunity to knock him out or break a joint or otherwise disable him

    Seems to me self defense isnt just having a gun, but involves just as much situtational awareness, hand to hand skill, and physical fitness, I.E. I need to get into the gym more often and back on the mat

    Now we are getting somewhere.
     

    jdhaines

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Feb 24, 2009
    1,550
    38
    Toledo, OH
    Alright guys, truth time. That video isn't real energy. Lets give the knife attacker a brain, free will, full pressure, and no rules. I called a good buddy over last night to shoot this video. We didn't edit it and we didn't do multiple takes. We simply pushed record and shot the sequences. This is what real training looks like. It's sloppy, your grappling will look like crap, your cardio weaknesses will come through, your adrenaline will dump and you'll lose more often than you win. Matt Thornton from Straight Blast Gym has written the best article I've ever seen on using honest energy in training. If you haven't read the link below...please do yourself a favor, stop reading what I'm writing and go read what Matt has to say. He is focused on BJJ, but his theories work for all types of training.

    SBGi - Straight Blast Gym International

    Training shouldn't be about looking cool, showing off, or making yourself feel good. It should be about increasing your abilities, strengthening your weaknesses, and pressure testing either your current best practices or possible new ones. You can learn slowly and effectively with low energy and still be honest. You can go pretty hard to fully pressure test ideas without getting injured. You can still get solid training and get better even if you don't see yourself as the most mobile, strong, or assertive. I'll talk more in depth about the video on the video discussion page at our website. For now, I'll post the video here and see what questions people have. I can already think of two possible follow-ons. Do one with my gun in play accessed both incorrectly and correctly (as well as I'm able) and one with some MMA gloves and let me try and strike. Maybe we'll add those in the future.

    Edited to Add: For reference, I'm 6'0" and about 260. I workout three times a week, but am obviously overweight. Will is 5'6" and 175lbs of awesome (his words!). He works out regularly and it shows. His strength overcomes some of the size difference, but not all of it. My size limits my maximum cardio performance. I'm taking steps to rectify the situation, but its important we do things in our current condition rather than in our future/dream condition. Be honest about the issues and do the work.

    [video=youtube_share;6LuAyg9MTWg]http://youtu.be/6LuAyg9MTWg[/video]
     
    Last edited:

    esrice

    Certified Regular Guy
    Rating - 100%
    20   0   0
    Jan 16, 2008
    24,095
    48
    Indy
    Josh that was too ugly and you were sucking too much wind for that to possibly be training.

    ;)

    Nice to see some ugly truth interjected into the conversation. Thank you sir!
     

    MikeDVB

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Mar 9, 2012
    8,688
    63
    Morgan County
    Excellent video Josh! Thank you for taking the time to set it up and record it - it really helps us less experienced to see what things would likely really be like versus what most show.
     

    The Bubba Effect

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    May 13, 2010
    6,221
    113
    High Rockies
    Do any of you guys have any input about going to the ground to create space from a knife attack?

    I have not illusions that it's a panacea, but it seemed like an idea before I watched the vid and still seems like an idea.

    I didn't take the original vid as being training so much as an exploration of a technique, kind of experimenting to see what happened.
     

    jdhaines

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Feb 24, 2009
    1,550
    38
    Toledo, OH
    Do any of you guys have any input about going to the ground to create space from a knife attack?

    I have not illusions that it's a panacea, but it seemed like an idea before I watched the vid and still seems like an idea.

    I didn't take the original vid as being training so much as an exploration of a technique, kind of experimenting to see what happened.

    It didn't work well for me. The space gained by going to the ground is very short lived. I'd much rather have the mobility of staying on my feet. On the first attack in my vid, I flat out slipped and ended up there. When the adrenaline comes in you tend to get clumsy. I wouldn't ever choose to go on the ground against someone with a weapon. I train grappling in case it happens...because it seems to happen a lot. Even against a highly skilled grappler the knife guy is likely to get a few cuts in. When we drill full on knife attacks using the RedZone system, I can usually escape without a cut about 10% of the time and that's staying on my feet. If it goes to the ground via tripping, slipping, falling, etc my percentage goes to 0% very quickly.
     

    The Bubba Effect

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    May 13, 2010
    6,221
    113
    High Rockies
    It didn't work well for me. The space gained by going to the ground is very short lived. I'd much rather have the mobility of staying on my feet. On the first attack in my vid, I flat out slipped and ended up there. When the adrenaline comes in you tend to get clumsy. I wouldn't ever choose to go on the ground against someone with a weapon. I train grappling in case it happens...because it seems to happen a lot. Even against a highly skilled grappler the knife guy is likely to get a few cuts in. When we drill full on knife attacks using the RedZone system, I can usually escape without a cut about 10% of the time and that's staying on my feet. If it goes to the ground via tripping, slipping, falling, etc my percentage goes to 0% very quickly.


    Thanks for the info! I can't watch vids at work, but will definitely check out your video when I get home from work.

    I don't know much of anything about self defense technique. I took just barely enough martial arts to learn how to fall down fairly well and while that's come in pretty handy, that is as far as I have gotten.
     

    YoungMilsurpGuy

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 18, 2013
    436
    43
    Crown Point
    It didn't work well for me. The space gained by going to the ground is very short lived. I'd much rather have the mobility of staying on my feet. On the first attack in my vid, I flat out slipped and ended up there. When the adrenaline comes in you tend to get clumsy. I wouldn't ever choose to go on the ground against someone with a weapon. I train grappling in case it happens...because it seems to happen a lot. Even against a highly skilled grappler the knife guy is likely to get a few cuts in. When we drill full on knife attacks using the RedZone system, I can usually escape without a cut about 10% of the time and that's staying on my feet. If it goes to the ground via tripping, slipping, falling, etc my percentage goes to 0% very quickly.

    From what I remember, as long as you dont get hit on a major artery, a cut or slash is much much less lethal then a stab. And what if you have a knife on you as well? Like I would venture to say that among the guys on this forum, a majority, or at least large plurality would have spring assist folding knives on them
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    From what I remember, as long as you dont get hit on a major artery, a cut or slash is much much less lethal then a stab. And what if you have a knife on you as well? Like I would venture to say that among the guys on this forum, a majority, or at least large plurality would have spring assist folding knives on them


    There is a big difference between surviving and avoiding incapacitation, significant reduction in fighting ability, or permenant damage. Cuts or stabs are both pretty undesireable. Just think of all the tendons in your hand, wrist, or forearm that would be damaged if you took a deep slashing defensive wound in those areas. Something like that might keep you from even being able to close your hand or grip adequately to grapple. Even if they aren't lethal, a significant slashing wound could have some significant ill effects.
     
    Last edited:

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    Alright guys, truth time. That video isn't real energy. Lets give the knife attacker a brain, free will, full pressure, and no rules. I called a good buddy over last night to shoot this video. We didn't edit it and we didn't do multiple takes. We simply pushed record and shot the sequences. This is what real training looks like. It's sloppy, your grappling will look like crap, your cardio weaknesses will come through, your adrenaline will dump and you'll lose more often than you win. Matt Thornton from Straight Blast Gym has written the best article I've ever seen on using honest energy in training. If you haven't read the link below...please do yourself a favor, stop reading what I'm writing and go read what Matt has to say. He is focused on BJJ, but his theories work for all types of training.

    SBGi - Straight Blast Gym International

    Training shouldn't be about looking cool, showing off, or making yourself feel good. It should be about increasing your abilities, strengthening your weaknesses, and pressure testing either your current best practices or possible new ones. You can learn slowly and effectively with low energy and still be honest. You can go pretty hard to fully pressure test ideas without getting injured. You can still get solid training and get better even if you don't see yourself as the most mobile, strong, or assertive. I'll talk more in depth about the video on the video discussion page at our website. For now, I'll post the video here and see what questions people have. I can already think of two possible follow-ons. Do one with my gun in play accessed both incorrectly and correctly (as well as I'm able) and one with some MMA gloves and let me try and strike. Maybe we'll add those in the future.

    Edited to Add: For reference, I'm 6'0" and about 260. I workout three times a week, but am obviously overweight. Will is 5'6" and 175lbs of awesome (his words!). He works out regularly and it shows. His strength overcomes some of the size difference, but not all of it. My size limits my maximum cardio performance. I'm taking steps to rectify the situation, but its important we do things in our current condition rather than in our future/dream condition. Be honest about the issues and do the work.

    You should have put this up in the "Knockout Game" thread. The speed, ferocity, and unpredictability of a live fighting situation seems to escape most of the posters in that thread. This was a good video, and a good examples of how sloppy and unpredictable these situations can be. Thanks for posting.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    There is a big difference between surviving and avoiding incapacitation, significant reduction in fighting ability, or permenant damage. Cuts or stabs are both pretty undesireable. Just think of all the tendons in your hand, wrist, or forearm that would be damaged if you took a deep slashing defensive wound in those areas. Something like that might keep you from even being able to close your hand or grip adequately to grapple. Even if they aren't lethal, a significant slashing wound could have some significant ill effects.

    Not only that but to piggyback on the post you are answering, it can be very difficult to access tools in this type of scrum. That spring assisted folding knife may or may not be of much help. You have to put in the work, against real resistance beforehand to find out. I know Jackson can speak to that.
     
    Top Bottom