Defensive Knife Class - Indianapolis, June 28th

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  • iChokePeople

    Master
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    Feb 11, 2011
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    From the curriculum description on the linked web site:
    In this course, we will teach you proven, easy-to-perform techinques for using a knife and defending yourself against a knife attack.

    Really?
     

    jdhaines

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    Toledo, OH
    Since the ITC logo is on the Pathfinder page, I'm going to assume either the OP is simply Brian LaMaster on a new name, or the OP is hosting him and happens to also be named Brian.

    I'd like to take a moment to post about him and his training quality. I've used ITC as an example in classes before as the type of junk training that is available if you aren't careful. With the rise in the number of training companies to fill the demand (as Kirk calls "the rise of the 300") there are a number of good companies and a number of bad ones. One of the things that I constantly try to get across is the idea of truth and honesty in training.** I'd like to see everyone working to spread the word about good programs and bad ones. Most of us are resource limited and can't train with everyone. The best way I've heard it described was from Morgan Atwood on TPI posted on 1/8/2014. I'll quote it below intact:

    Morgan Atwood said:
    "As a writer and trainer in this industry, I'm amazed at how when someone calls bull**** on a group or an idea they may get disagreed with but rarely scolded, but as soon as they name names, they've crossed a line with many people.
    This industry operates on a false construct of honor and ethics, which tells us it is never okay to call people out by name. We can name bad ideas, dangerous practices, and (sometimes) the most egregious violators of common standards (Dick Metcalf, Zimbo, etc.), but as soon as we give a name to a bad actor in this industry for matters of Tactics, Techniques or Practices, the hue and cry of "unethical" and "dishonorable" begins. And it is behind this bull**** idea of "honor" that people like Higginbotham, numerous other gunwriters and even major industry players and trainers, hide. You can get away with murder, if the community around you widely supports the idea that calling people out by name is unethical.
    For the record, ****.That.****.Sideways. (To Tears, On Fire, While Running). As an industry member, albeit neither a prominent nor influential one, I want to develop a new culture. I want to develop a culture of naming and shaming people who sell dangerous ideas, promote dangerous products, or otherwise package bull****, hokum and nonsense as "Truth" for mass consumption. I embrace a culture of higher standards, and transparency. When bull**** is pushed, no one should be too big to name, shame and take down. Everyone should be accountable (including those who cry "unfair" and "unethical" when their favorite Jim Jones gets skewered. Those people, and their sacred cows and small gods, are holding us all back and endangering lives). To hell with diplomatic words: Name them. Shame them. Demand better. Everyone put on their big girl panties, and deal with it. We'd all be better off in the end." *Morgan Atwood, TPI, 1/8/2014

    I believe in this very strongly. To that end I'll use an ITC video to prove the point (though others would work):

    Basic Jab (Whole Body Strike) - YouTube

    If you watch the video you should be hearing warning bells and sirens going off in your head. To name a few: the fake flyback of his training partner, the goofy stance, the claim that you can't actually practice these techniques full speed, the claim that something called Thai jitsu has the best punching mechanics, the claim that boxing isn't going to work in a fight, etc etc. Let's use a little logic shall we?*

    If we want to be the best at punching people who don't want to get punched, let's look towards the sports that make that a priority: boxing, kick boxing, muay thai.* Boxers have shown to have the hardest punches in the world using scientific testing. When a professional boxer lands a full power punch, the other guy does not fly back 10 feet like Mr LaMaster claims he can do. His hand was against the pad and he simply pushed, that's different.* How is pushing someone combat effective?* Do you really think that if some jerk is accosting you outside a gas station he'll let you do a goofy stanced full body strike to him?** No way.** Think through it. If you want to learn to turn someone into a lawn dart, maybe you should see who spends their days trying to do that...Greco Roman Wrestling for 1000 Alex.

    I'm not looking to be mean or disrespectful, but I do want to be honest. As Morgan put it so eloquently we'll all be better for it.

    To the person looking for a company or person to spend their money with it would be nice if we didn't "pull our punches" (ha) about places that are no good. If we do that as a community the junk places will fade away and the good companies will prosper.

    Mike and I work hard to be on that list.* I've listed some other companies who have already made it in other threads.* Past students of ours will tell you we spend time to list all the good training companies out there we have experience with and trust.* I would have always counted The Pathfinder School and Dave Canterbury as a top notch outfit, but I am really questioning that now.

    If Self Reliance Outfitters was just looking to host a decent self defense class, I sincerely hope they reconsider who they partner with.
     

    Mike Grasso

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    The concept of bringing a knife to a gun fight has always baffled me...

    [video=youtube;7YyBtMxZgQs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs[/video]
     

    iChokePeople

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    To the person looking for a company or person to spend their money with it would be nice if we didn't "pull our punches" (ha) about places that are no good. If we do that as a community the junk places will fade away and the good companies will prosper.

    We HAVE to pull our punches, or they'll have to call an ambulance. Or a whaaaambulance.

    thanks for speaking up, Josh. +1 from me.
     

    cedartop

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    Apr 25, 2010
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    North of Notre Dame.
    The concept of bringing a knife to a gun fight has always baffled me...

    .]

    This is not what we are saying at all. We are believers in defensive knife, or better yet knife defense. In the clip you reference our intrepid hero makes the right choice for his situation. Such will not always be the case. Not every problem is a gun problem. As a matter of fact most aren't. Fortunately I think this attitude is going the way of the Dodo. It can take the faulty 3-3-3 rule with it as well.
     

    Mike Grasso

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    Interesting, if I may ask, have you ever been in a knife fight, seen someone who has been?
    I've seen more than one aftermath, having pushed a B&W in a Fillipino neighborhood for a while
    Having studied under Danny Inosanto, here in Los Angeles and had him demo several dozen classes at the Academy,
    I can honestly say, in my humble yet experienced opinion, other than a good Martial Art to practice, defending yourself with a Knife as opposed to a handgun is not the most prudent choice.
    Now I'm not bashing this Instructor or his class, just the opposite, any skill you can add is a good skill.
    It all depends on how it's presented, but thanks for the "continuing education", sometimes an instructor, always a student.

    Cedartop, looked up your schools, you seem to agree with me, "it all depends on how it's presented", we may disagree on the dinosaur comment.
    As for the 3-3-3, Train Train Train, you never know when two suspects, dressed in armor will rob a bank on a sunny Los Angeles street.
     
    Last edited:

    iChokePeople

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    I generally agree with you that a knife is not often an optimal defensive tool. I believe that in nearly any defensive situation in the US in 2014, if I could access a knife, I could access a gun. Other cultures have knife fights. The US really doesn't. We have stabbings. IMHO, everyone should learn how to protect themselves against a knife attack, but that will rarely (again, IMHO) involve the use of a knife. It will probably either be straight to the gun because the attacker made a mistake and showed his blade too early, or it will be a mess where you'll try your best to minimize the damage with your hands or whatever is in them until you can access whatever tool or equalizer is available. If someone shows you his knife and you respond by showing him yours (again, we're talking usa in 2014), you've made a mistake.
     

    bwframe

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    Btown Rural
    Interesting, if I may ask, have you ever been in a knife fight, seen someone who has been?

    I've been in a few FOF classes, involving blades.

    Normally those who post the silly worn out Indiana Jones vid are those with limited or no training who feel that their gun is the do-all/only tool for every job. They believe fights start at distance with lots of showy telegraphing and time to think out their reaction like Indiana Jones had IN THE MOVIE.

    Please pardon me if I've misinterpreted your skill set.
     

    shootersix

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    i knew a eville police officer,(5'7" 150# soaking wet) 20 year vet of the force, run into a burning building, climb a tree to save a kitten, bouncer at a strip club, not afraid to throw punches at anybody,you know old school kinda cop,he was scared to death of knives! if he even thought you were going to pull your knife, youd be looking at his sig p228!, (rip bobby)

    i took krav maga for 3 years(and hope to get back into it soon!) and all i learned was, i never want to get into a knife fight!, the instructor said it best, "in a knife fight, the winner bleeds, and the looser gushes", i cant tell you how many times i got slashed trying to defend myself. and when i was the "attacker" i cant tell you how many people got stabbed by my rubber knife. they said they were going to get the shock knives, that way everybody knows when that did it wrong

    as for learning how to knife fight, i'll pass, never bring a knife to a gun fight!
     

    Mike Grasso

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    I've been in a few FOF classes, involving blades.

    Normally those who post the silly worn out Indiana Jones vid are those with limited or no training who feel that their gun is the do-all/only tool for every job. They believe fights start at distance with lots of showy telegraphing and time to think out their reaction like Indiana Jones had IN THE MOVIE.

    Please pardon me if I've misinterpreted your skill set.

    No harm, no foul.
     

    iChokePeople

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    What about Judo? Judo never gets any love.

    Ronda Rousey agrees.

    HaraiGoshi4.jpg
     
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