Shivworks and PDN on Entanglement

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  • bwframe

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    Shivworks and PDN on entanglement:

    [video=youtube_share;GQ7jBRZwiCg]http://youtu.be/GQ7jBRZwiCg[/video]

    Thoughts?

    I know, I know, we all think we can out draw the advancing BG...
    Situational awareness...
    Just shoot 'em...
    :rolleyes:
     

    cedartop

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    Craig is one of the best there is teaching this stuff. There is a reason a lot of info in our Managing Confrontations class is eerily similar to some of what Craig shows here. This clip comes from his ECQC Dvd. The class of that name is renowned throughout the land.:@ya: Were you looking for specific thoughts or general ones?
     

    jdhaines

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    Great clip. Most here know that I'm an admitted fanboy of Craig's material. I tend to say the word Shivworks more often than our company name during our MC class. What is more interesting is that if you spend some time around the group of guys who helped with this material on the ground floor you realize the depth of this material is extreme. It sounds a bit superficial if you only take the information on the surface, but what you are seeing is a very complicated "entangling" of close range pistol work, greco roman fundamentals, and clinch work from various other clinching disciplines. Over hundreds of classes Craig has optimized both the delivery and specifics of what material is taught ending is what I sincerely believe is the state of the art for multiple years running when we talk about close range weapons problems. There is no better class out there for this material.

    To really see the beauty in this approach and material, take a small piece and drill it with a partner. It's amazing how fast you can be throwing people around with it. It's one of those great sets of skills where a little bit of practice gives you a HUGE jump in abilities. Each one of the little details shown in this clip could be the basis for hundreds of hours of drills and practice with a training group. We do go through a little of the same material as Craig shows (and cite it as we go) but we focus hard on taking the material making it something you could use against an aggressive bum.

    As far as learning how to honestly fight with someone when entangled, this is the gold standard. It's pressure testable and functions even when the other guy is allowed to have a brain, think, and resist. So much of the junk you see out there, often from traditional martial arts (though not always) never allows honest energy. By using skills from forms of wrestling where both fighters are going full force and resisting full force you can be sure you are getting an honest skill which will work when you need it.
     

    Coach

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    Thoughts yes I have some thoughts.

    If you think mastering trigger press and sight alignment is tough and takes time. Then being successful in the positions that they are describing in this video is going to take much longer. Then if the person you are struggling with has wrestling experience and you do not then your chances of success are slim. If the person you are struggling with has no wrestling experience but is 25 pounds heavier than you and you weigh less than 200 pounds, things are going to be very difficult.

    I have heard the term clinch used before on this board somewhere and I never paid any attention. I would not use the term clinch unless I or my opponent had his hands locked around the body. In the Greco Roman world the clinch is when both guys have their arms locked. Shivworks has some wrestling knowledge and background and does a good job of breaking things down so they are easy to understand for those who don't have that background. Maintaining a wrist tie against someone with experience can be very difficult to do.

    I think this video makes people think that a few moves or positions are easy to master and breed false confidence. If you worked hard for 5-6 days a week for a few months you would have a good start on getting these positions under control. Shivworks is right that the underhook is preferred but it is not quite as simple to maintain. I can give you and underhook and I can make your life very difficult. That lazy elbow that shivworks mentioned, can take you to the ground and choke the **** out of you before you know what happened if the other guy has some wrestling experience.

    If someone is going to spend the time learning these positions and techniques they should learn how to put the other guy on the ground, and then escape and draw.

    I would recommend getting a lock around the body of the other guy that pins his dominate arm to his side and then put him on the ground. Another key point is to make the other guy react to you so that he cannot execute his plan.

    I have 20 plus years of experience and knowledge in these areas and could teach these positions all day long. Heavyweights live and die in these positions. Gaining a position of advantage and breaking free to draw a gun or knife is easier than pinning the other guy.
     
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    Jackson

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    Thoughts yes I have some thoughts.

    If you think mastering trigger press and sight alignment is tough and takes time. Then being successful in the positions that they are describing in this video is going to take much longer. Then if the person you are struggling with has wrestling experience and you do not then your chances of success are slim. If the person you are struggling with has no wrestling experience but is 25 pounds heavier than you and you weigh less than 200 pounds, things are going to be very difficult.

    I have heard the term clinch used before on this board somewhere and I never paid any attention. I would not use the term clinch unless I or my opponent had his hands locked around the body. In the Greco Roman world the clinch is when both guys have their arms locked. Shivworks has some wrestling knowledge and background and does a good job of breaking things down so they are easy to understand for those who don't have that background. Maintaining a wrist tie against someone with experience can be very difficult to do.

    I think this video makes people think that a few moves or positions are easy to master and breed false confidence. If you worked hard for 5-6 days a week for a few months you would have a good start on getting these positions under control. Shivworks is right that the underhook is preferred but it is not quite as simple to maintain. I can give you and underhook and I can make your life very difficult. That lazy elbow that shivworks mentioned, can take you to the ground and choke the **** out of you before you know what happened if the other guy has some wrestling experience.

    If someone is going to spend the time learning these positions and techniques they should learn how to put the other guy on the ground, and then escape and draw.

    I would recommend getting a lock around the body of the other guy that pins his dominate arm to his side and then put him on the ground. Another key point is to make the other guy react to you so that he cannot execute his plan.

    I have 20 plus years of experience and knowledge in these areas and could teach these positions all day long. Heavyweights live and die in these positions. Gaining a position of advantage and breaking free to draw a gun or knife is easier than pinning the other guy.




    I do not have any wrestling experience, a fact I often regret. I didn't see the value of it when I was in school, and I was lazy. I don't think the video is intended to make people believe the skills are easy to master. I don't think its even intended as depicting the "only tools you need". I think he's just breaking down the most basic, high-percentage techniques (in his opinion) as a starting point, and because he makes money on the videos.

    From what little I know about wrestling, putting the other guy on the ground often results in you being on the ground as well. I don't know that I'm interested in that, as I may not be certain I'll get back off the ground. I wont know what the guy's background is, and I'm not intersted in a protracted wrestling match. If I can get to his back and control one arm (pinned to the body or however) while standing for >3 seconds (as depicted in the video), I can possibly clear the holster and put rounds in his lower back. Without any knowledge, it seems worthwhile to me to start that lead injection process while still in some control (before breaking contact). Just an idea based on the video. He seems to agree with your point on pinning the arm to the body, or otherwise controlling it.

    As with anything, he's only breaking down what will be a short moment in the overall conflict and providing some ideas on how to approach it.
     

    Double T

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    I'm watching some of this and saying to myself grab the ****ing eye socket and throw the skull downward...I'm a bit tipsy now too...so I might need to watch it sober :0
     

    Coach

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    Perhaps he is not meaning to say it is simple to master. But get an underhook and do this and that is not acknowledging the difficulty in maintaining a position of advantage. a couple of guys who know what they are doing will have a huge battle in trying to get and maintain underhooks and overhooks.


    If I get behind or to the side I do not have to go to the ground with someone if I chose not to do so. But I can certainly break contact and draw. Myself I would be very comfortable going to the ground especially one on one. If I can put the guy down face down on the ground I turn the lights out a couple of different ways and pretty quickly and I may not need to shoot him.

    If run up a against a striker, puncher or kicker the plan is to close, tie up and take this to the ground because that greatly changes things. Much of their offense has been taken away and I can do more. If you are going to study and train "the tangle" you had better get familiar with fighting on the ground.

    Another point was that you never know what wrestling experience someone has. Those with much wrestling experience will tell you that many times it is not tanned, muscular, greek god-looking bastard to worry about. It is that pale, freckled skinny little red haired bastard that will flat beat your ass.
     

    cedartop

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    Thoughts yes I have some thoughts.

    If you think mastering trigger press and sight alignment is tough and takes time. Then being successful in the positions that they are describing in this video is going to take much longer. Then if the person you are struggling with has wrestling experience and you do not then your chances of success are slim. If the person you are struggling with has no wrestling experience but is 25 pounds heavier than you and you weigh less than 200 pounds, things are going to be very difficult.

    I have heard the term clinch used before on this board somewhere and I never paid any attention. I would not use the term clinch unless I or my opponent had his hands locked around the body. In the Greco Roman world the clinch is when both guys have their arms locked. Shivworks has some wrestling knowledge and background and does a good job of breaking things down so they are easy to understand for those who don't have that background. Maintaining a wrist tie against someone with experience can be very difficult to do.

    I think this video makes people think that a few moves or positions are easy to master and breed false confidence. If you worked hard for 5-6 days a week for a few months you would have a good start on getting these positions under control. Shivworks is right that the underhook is preferred but it is not quite as simple to maintain. I can give you and underhook and I can make your life very difficult. That lazy elbow that shivworks mentioned, can take you to the ground and choke the **** out of you before you know what happened if the other guy has some wrestling experience.

    If someone is going to spend the time learning these positions and techniques they should learn how to put the other guy on the ground, and then escape and draw.

    I would recommend getting a lock around the body of the other guy that pins his dominate arm to his side and then put him on the ground. Another key point is to make the other guy react to you so that he cannot execute his plan.

    I have 20 plus years of experience and knowledge in these areas and could teach these positions all day long. Heavyweights live and die in these positions. Gaining a position of advantage and breaking free to draw a gun or knife is easier than pinning the other guy.

    I have no argument to what you are saying here Coach, but I guess I don't get your point. I am not training to beat Rob Leatham in a gunfight, or you and ICP in a wrestling match. Should we not train H2H at all if we can't hope to beat a collegiate level wrestler? I would much rather know enough to keep me out of the George Zimmerman position than not to bother with it because I can't beat a top level practitioner. Also remember this is just part of what he teaches. Your point about putting someone on the ground and breaking contact for distance is also covered.
     

    jdhaines

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    What Mike said. Coach, I didn't realize you had a wrestling background. I wish now I would have done some instruction with you while I still lived in South Bend. That said, you're right. This video is a small slice. To clarify terminology, they refer to clinch as any type of standing wrestling. Locking a neck muay thai style is clinching. Wrestling while standing is clinching. Greco Roman is clinching. Perhaps a slight miss on proper wrestling jargon, but it should clarify things. In a fight you are talking, striking, clinching, then ground. It's a term to explain the distance. If you both reach out and can grab each other, that's clinch range. That way we're on the same page terminology wise, right or wrong.

    The goals are exactly as you described it. This is intended to be the first explanation of some concepts to someone with no wrestling background. Underhooks and overhooks and ties are the notes, then you go drill for a long time with people to learn some basic songs. The wins would be using these tools to get a position of advantage. I try for side body lock because I'm often not fast enough to get to the back directly. If I get to the side, I've got a decent chance of getting the back but I have two good takedowns from the side. A real D1 wrestler would have 20. I know a double leg, but am not fast enough to use it on most people, so I don't. A snatch single is a great one that can be taught quickly and I like one particular finish...a good wrestler would have what...40? Along with what Mike said, I think your point is absolutely correct in that you won't be a competitive wrestler with this material, but it's some of the same building blocks that good wrestlers start with. Integrating SOME wrestling in your training can make you a lot more likely to succeed. I will say that I know of multiple shivworks guys who helped with this material who are VERY high level wrestlers. They've worked diligently at paring down good solid wrestling fundamentals to things that can be taught in a class timeframe and then practiced to gain appreciable skills. It's a solid goal and they've done it well. As with all skills though, if you want to be a boxer, go to a boxing gym 3 days a week for 5 years. If you aren't going to put in the time, spend a weekend once a month banging with some buddies with headgear on and a mouth guard and see if you can't figure some things out. In the same bent, working a mount escape every few weeks is fantastic. If you have some time though, go get a black belt in BJJ. Wrestling is the same. Go join a wrestling club and work it for years to be unstoppable...OR pick a simple single leg and a single finish from a Dan Gable video and work it until you can't move. You are absolutely correct and you having solid wrestling skills already would make you a much harder guy to take advantage of. Unfortunately most of us have a single skill or no skills when we start down this path so we have to get good at everything usually very slowly. I try and work all my skills slowly up rather than one or two much more quickly. I wish I had time to devote to BJJ on a weekly basis as that's the skill I enjoy training the most. I wish I could devote 3 hours a week to verbal skills as that's the skill I feel I could use the most.
     

    Coach

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    My reaction when I watch this video is that folks watching do not understand how much feel and technique come into play to perform these moves for real. If we go out in the back yard and run it on each other in drill conditions and walk away feeling like we are ready to tussle then we stand to be a victim of false confidence. I have seen gun retention drills and take away drills "faked" for the lack of a better term to make old men and women feel good about the technique being sold. I am NOT saying this video is faked in any way shape or form, but I think there is a lot of salesmanship out there in the training world. How many people watching this video and a little backyard work now feel like they know something?

    There are female teachers where I work who think they can take me in a fight because they took a class and know how to pop and eye ball out the socket. They could not be more wrong.

    How many people buy a gun, uncle stumpy shows them how to load it and pull the trigger and they are carrying it around feeling like they are armed?

    My point was don't watch this video and feel like you have a few techniques that will save your ass in a pinch. It is going to take a lot more work for that to be true than most people realize.

    Hand to hand combat if you are going to train it properly is going to take time, and a lot of it. You don't have to train to beat an elite athlete, but someone who knows you can kick their ass is not going to start a fight with you. Some who is confident that they can kick your ass is much more likely to start something. You have to train for that.

    By all means train H2H, but be aware of what you need to do, and don't underestimate people on the street.
     

    jdhaines

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    Right on Coach. That idea of honesty in training is my number 1 most important point and forms the backbone of the only class I teach. The DVD can only do so much. In the real class people grind these until arms are black and blue and you can hardly move the next day. If anything is clear by the end, it's that "this is hard and I need more practice!"
     

    Coach

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    Right on Coach. That idea of honesty in training is my number 1 most important point and forms the backbone of the only class I teach. The DVD can only do so much. In the real class people grind these until arms are black and blue and you can hardly move the next day. If anything is clear by the end, it's that "this is hard and I need more practice!"

    Amen. It sounds like from the posts here that you are doing things right. Keep it up and let no man falter who believes he is right.
     

    Jackson

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    Shivworks and PDN on entanglement:

    [video=youtube_share;GQ7jBRZwiCg]http://youtu.be/GQ7jBRZwiCg[/video]

    Thoughts?

    I know, I know, we all think we can out draw the advancing BG...
    Situational awareness...
    Just shoot 'em...
    :rolleyes:


    Perhaps he is not meaning to say it is simple to master. But get an underhook and do this and that is not acknowledging the difficulty in maintaining a position of advantage. a couple of guys who know what they are doing will have a huge battle in trying to get and maintain underhooks and overhooks.


    I know I'm resurrecting a very old discussion here. I was watching some MMA breakdown videos from BJJ scout and thought of this discussion on entanglement and wrestling applications. While reading back through the thread, I also really appreciated the above-quoted statement by Coach about how difficult these positions are in real life. I think they are even more difficult if the other person can strike you. The MMA videos show real examples of high-level wrestlers working in the clinch with strikes available. It is difficult for either of them to achieve and maintain position. So I thought I'd post the two breakdown videos on here as an example of what this might look like in real life with two well-trained guys going at it for real.

    One of the guys in the video is Daniel Cormier. For those who are unfamiliar, he was an Olympic silver medalist in wrestling and an undefeated MMA fighter. The other guy is Jon Jones. He was the most dominant UFC Light Heavyweight Champion and an accomplished collegiate wrestler. Both are very good at fighting in the clinch. They use many of the positions discussed in the Shivworks video and integrate considerable amounts of striking.

    [video=youtube_share;Iq96XmBWSn4]https://youtu.be/Iq96XmBWSn4[/video]

    [video=youtube_share;GQqphWiJRl8]https://youtu.be/GQqphWiJRl8[/video]

    Of course there are no weapons in an MMA match. I'm also posting a video of a prison stabbing that happens from basically the same position that Daniel Cormier uses to land uppercuts in this fight (head control with a collar tie).

    [video=youtube_share;DXDJ2fBhOiM]https://youtu.be/DXDJ2fBhOiM[/video]

    And finally, a video of what these concepts might look like applied to a knife attack in an ideal situation (He uses a similar write tie/wrist control to an arm drag and Russian tie type position (not sure if this is technically a russian tie by the hand position, but I have to call it something). to control the knife. Not the same, but the application of wrestling concepts to a weapon problem. Compare and contrast with the above videos, keeping in mind how difficult it was for Jones to control DC's arm, let alone get an arm drag or Russian tie for any length of time.

    [video=youtube_share;N092JpJ6jig]https://youtu.be/N092JpJ6jig[/video]


    The take-away for me? More of a question. Is there any realistic defense to an entangled knife fight?
     
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    Jackson

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    So, one thing that I've been playing with here and there during BJJ class, both standing and on the ground, is controlling the opponents wrist with a C-grip and pressing it to their hip or body (basically a wrist tie). You see Jones do this a few times in the above videos. I do this commonly with an underhook on the opposite side, and also sometimes from a tight overhook. I might use it to control a post to sweep from butterfly or other guard positions. I have yet to make effective use of it while standing, but my wrestling game is weak and I don't work from standing nearly enough to understand my options.

    Either way, I see this particular attempt at wrist control as potentially a gateway to keeping an opponent from accessing a weapon, using a weapon already in hand, and from striking me. I say a gateway because, thus far, I don't have the skills do to anything significant with it if my opponent has any wrestling acumen at all (even as little as I have).

    Anyway, those are some things I'm doing with these ideas. I don't know if this will generate any discussion.
     
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    turnandshoot4

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    What I've found in my internal fight nights is that the 2 on 1 wrist grab works great! How we mitigated it was to pass it to the other hand, which we had to initiate another 2 on 1.

    Takeaways:
    1. 2 on 1 wrist grab works.
    2. It is overcome by passing it to the other hand.
    3. Lots of strikes happen during the grab.
    4. You can't keep your own waist safe during the 2 on 1.
    5. Have a plan to create space (throws, etc.) unless you plan on using cardio to win the encounter.
     

    Coach

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    So, one thing that I've been playing with here and there during BJJ class, both standing and on the ground, is controlling the opponents wrist with a C-grip and pressing it to their hip or body (basically a wrist tie). You see Jones do this a few times in the above videos. I do this commonly with an underhook on the opposite side, and also sometimes from a tight overhook. I might use it to control a post to sweep from butterfly or other guard positions. I have yet to make effective use of it while standing, but my wrestling game is weak and I don't work from standing nearly enough to understand my options.

    Either way, I see this particular attempt at wrist control as potentially a gateway to keeping an opponent from accessing a weapon, using a weapon already in hand, and from striking me. I say a gateway because, thus far, I don't have the skills do to anything significant with it if my opponent has any wrestling acumen at all (even as little as I have).

    Anyway, those are some things I'm doing with these ideas. I don't know if this will generate any discussion.

    An underhook and a wrist is a position of advantage. If you can maintain that position you are in a pretty good way. You should be able to maintain it long enough to break contact and gain distance on your terms, and do so without going to the ground. Unless of course you are over matched and out weighed drastically. Then lots of things don't work and the clinch is the wrong place to be.
     

    Coach

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    My days of winning with cardio have been gone for a long time. On the street I don't like it as an option or at least the first few options. No matter how long it takes or does not take to achieve a victory that way the other guy has some time to land some strikes or stabs. My point being it is risky for even those in really good shape.
     

    jkdbjj

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    This post by Coach is money. If interested in the topic it should be read, then read again, then printed and considered at length.

    Getting in a "clinch" with a wrestler, judo player, or just a dude much bigger and stronger than yourself is a bad, bad situation. Getting in that place with one armed with a knife or gun? Worst nightmare.

    I liked Craig's video, for what it is, but understand that the pummeling, trapping, etc., is high level stuff against anyone who is serious about the fight and ending the fight or ending you. Wrestling? In my opinion the foundation of real fighting. Do you have time to become a high level wrestler? Probably not---unless you are in elementary school or middle school. However, you can learn some of the parts of wrestling that can help in an "entanglement"---namely, getting out of it. Great wrestlers are near impossible to take down. Good wrestlers are near impossible for an inexperienced grappler to take down. BUT, if your goal is to not get taken down (and that should be your goal in the street) then much of what makes them hard to take down can be learned, if you are patient and have a good teacher. No, it is not a weekend course. You need a coach and a long-term plan of learning.



    Thoughts yes I have some thoughts.

    If you think mastering trigger press and sight alignment is tough and takes time. Then being successful in the positions that they are describing in this video is going to take much longer. Then if the person you are struggling with has wrestling experience and you do not then your chances of success are slim. If the person you are struggling with has no wrestling experience but is 25 pounds heavier than you and you weigh less than 200 pounds, things are going to be very difficult.

    I have heard the term clinch used before on this board somewhere and I never paid any attention. I would not use the term clinch unless I or my opponent had his hands locked around the body. In the Greco Roman world the clinch is when both guys have their arms locked. Shivworks has some wrestling knowledge and background and does a good job of breaking things down so they are easy to understand for those who don't have that background. Maintaining a wrist tie against someone with experience can be very difficult to do.

    I think this video makes people think that a few moves or positions are easy to master and breed false confidence. If you worked hard for 5-6 days a week for a few months you would have a good start on getting these positions under control. Shivworks is right that the underhook is preferred but it is not quite as simple to maintain. I can give you and underhook and I can make your life very difficult. That lazy elbow that shivworks mentioned, can take you to the ground and choke the **** out of you before you know what happened if the other guy has some wrestling experience.

    If someone is going to spend the time learning these positions and techniques they should learn how to put the other guy on the ground, and then escape and draw.

    I would recommend getting a lock around the body of the other guy that pins his dominate arm to his side and then put him on the ground. Another key point is to make the other guy react to you so that he cannot execute his plan.

    I have 20 plus years of experience and knowledge in these areas and could teach these positions all day long. Heavyweights live and die in these positions. Gaining a position of advantage and breaking free to draw a gun or knife is easier than pinning the other guy.
     
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