For those of you who occasionally drive and care about this kind of stuff...

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  • iChokePeople

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    Some good points in here, some interesting ideas. One that's worth repeating, as the Paladin guys (Mike and Josh) teach in their Managing Confrontations class: Do not go to a secondary scene. Whatever is going to happen you, you're better off where you are now than wherever your captor/attacker wants to take you. The secondary scene is always better for him/them and worse for you.

    On with the vid:

    [video=youtube;WIQG2bKl3e0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIQG2bKl3e0&list=UUNMZWa1QP42jHrmmzayFEeg[/video]
     

    obijohn

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    Good information here. Many of us spent too much time in and around motor vehicles. Training for the untoward and unexpected is only prudent.
     

    chezuki

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    Good stuff, but....how many people can actually climb through their arms when the arms are tied behind the back?

    My thought exactly. I'm certainly not one of them. I have often said though, that one of the few positive aspects of my physique is kidnap-resistance.
     

    88GT

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    My thought exactly. I'm certainly not one of them. I have often said though, that one of the few positive aspects of my physique is kidnap-resistance.

    I'm fairly certain I couldn't.

    I liked the information in the video, but I wonder if it was too technical, meaning, I wonder how useful it will be for the individual who has little to no training/practice with the moves they were suggesting. It scares me to think about someone who would try the complicated seat belt maneuver only to find she didn't get it right, and after the elbow to her temple, she wakes up to find herself at the secondary location anyway.

    I have almost 2 years of some martial arts under my belt. While our particular discipline is geared much more toward tournaments, we do a little self defense sequence every cycle. If there's one thing I've learned during my time on the mat, it's that the more complicated and intricate the move(s), the greater the risk of failure because it provides so little room for error. It is for this reason that I would love to migrate toward a more krav maga-style of training.
     

    iChokePeople

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    I would recommend, as would rener, that if you intend to have any of these ideas in your bag of tricks, you practice it many times, including against uncooperative, full-resisting opponents. That's one of the kind of base level ideas in BJJ. No magic, no death touch, try it against a resisting opponent. Not everything will work for everyone, or on everyone. You have to put in the work, find out what works for YOU, and make it yours. I'm not aware of any reputable BJJ instructors who claim that it's simple or can be mastered in a short time.
     

    jdhaines

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    So I guess that small section of MC did stick after all Chris!

    I first heard that lesson from articles Sam Harris has written (initial post here). He's an amazingly smart guy who has some good information on defense (among other topics). He was quoting a section from Sanford Strong's book "Strong on Defense." It's also quoted in the book Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker which is an absolute must read although he's pretty anti-gun...it doesn't detract from the book in my eyes.

    The applicable quote is below.

    Sanford Strong via Sam Harris said:
    From a cop’s point of view, citizens seem to keep making the same mistakes over and over, until all cases begin to sound alike…. The objective of a violent criminal is to control you, emotionally and physically. Everything he does—his threats and promises—is intended to terrify and control you. The more control you give to the violent criminal, even if you see it as temporary, the less likely you are to escape. For most crime victims, their temporary cooperation backfired into full control over them. Time works against the victim and for the criminal. The longer you stall, the more you talk, the deeper you sink.

    The areas above and below this quote in the blog post linked above it show the context and secondary location ideas. We mention it in the class but don't give it a huge amount of time because we're trying to get through so much info. Gavin DeBecker gives it more time and attention than Sam Harris does and really gets to the heart of the matter from a predicting violence perspective as that's the whole point of his book.

    Great stuff.

    Regarding grappling in a car...we did a class two weeks ago that showed the basics quickly. Shivworks has probably the most highly evolved curriculum on it. Rener/Ryron are fantastic and have a BJJ game on a whole other level from most people. They definitely have the background to put together something like this, but it likely isn't a high enough priority. It's a niche area within the realm of self defense. I see it as more fun than useful itself, although learning to grapple in a car has side benefits including: learning to be comfortable in tight spaces, learning to use the entire space available, learning to use makeshift tools (seat belts, hand holds, etc), and learning to relax and think through problems.
     

    88GT

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    I would recommend, as would rener, that if you intend to have any of these ideas in your bag of tricks, you practice it many times, including against uncooperative, full-resisting opponents. That's one of the kind of base level ideas in BJJ. No magic, no death touch, try it against a resisting opponent. Not everything will work for everyone, or on everyone. You have to put in the work, find out what works for YOU, and make it yours. I'm not aware of any reputable BJJ instructors who claim that it's simple or can be mastered in a short time.
    I get that, and completely agree.

    Maybe I missed the mark about the intent of the video. But it certainly doesn't seem to me that it has any applicability to the general public as the general public is not going to be able to take that information and use it the next day if necessary.
     

    iChokePeople

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    I get that, and completely agree.

    Maybe I missed the mark about the intent of the video. But it certainly doesn't seem to me that it has any applicability to the general public as the general public is not going to be able to take that information and use it the next day if necessary.

    Probably true, other than the advice abut the secondary location and the general ideas about options. It was originally sent to a mailing list on which most of the recipients are probably fairly serious about grappling and fighting.

    I think I could teach someone a rear naked choke, or the car version there, to the point that they could use it successfully against an untrained opponent in... An hour, unless the student is really challenged. I think maybe I'll try to put together a free workshop/training group thing for a few interested parties where we can explore some of this car stuff in a little more depth.
     

    Jackson

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    I think maybe I'll try to put together a free workshop/training group thing for a few interested parties where we can explore some of this car stuff in a little more depth.

    Who do you have in mind? I have a car that will soon be on it's way to the scrap yard. I am not too concerned about interior damage. That trip can be delayed if it would be helpful.
     

    88GT

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    Probably true, other than the advice abut the secondary location and the general ideas about options. It was originally sent to a mailing list on which most of the recipients are probably fairly serious about grappling and fighting.

    I think I could teach someone a rear naked choke, or the car version there, to the point that they could use it successfully against an untrained opponent in... An hour, unless the student is really challenged. I think maybe I'll try to put together a free workshop/training group thing for a few interested parties where we can explore some of this car stuff in a little more depth.

    Okay, that makes more sense. Just to be clear, I wasn't poo-pooing the information. On the contrary, as a very novice student of "hands-on" self defense, I found it fascinating. And motivating. But based on the introduction of "information too good to keep to ourselves," I assumed (and that would probably be the source of the problem) that it was a general audience instructional video. It makes sense that the target audience was more limited.
     

    cedartop

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    Okay, that makes more sense. Just to be clear, I wasn't poo-pooing the information. On the contrary, as a very novice student of "hands-on" self defense, I found it fascinating. And motivating. But based on the introduction of "information too good to keep to ourselves," I assumed (and that would probably be the source of the problem) that it was a general audience instructional video. It makes sense that the target audience was more limited.

    Josh did a good job in our Vehicle class on giving info that could be use by anyone with a small amount of practice. That typically starts with setting down concepts instead of just a bunch of techniques, iChoke people knows what I am talking about. After that introduction, the sky is the limit if you want to pursue it.
     

    Jackson

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    Now that I've watched the video... The stuff was interesting but it leaves out a whole realm of faster and maybe more brutal attacks that may be easier to employ. A fast strike to the throat from the passenger seat, or clawing at/pressing fingers in to to the eyes from behind. I'd be inclined to occupy the driver's seat with them while I lay in to them with various strikes. But, I've always lacked finesse like that.
     

    Jackson

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    I should also say that any fight in confined quarters where you cannot stand will very much favor the better grappler and/or the stronger opponent who can dominate position and space. So I while striking might be my opener, it probably wouldn't be the deciding factor. And I would certainly supplement with some eye gouging and screwdriver/ice scraper/brokenoff-shift-lever stabbings and beatings.
     

    iChokePeople

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    Who do you have in mind? I have a car that will soon be on it's way to the scrap yard. I am not too concerned about interior damage. That trip can be delayed if it would be helpful.

    Oh yeah, something like that would be great. I was kind of assuming you'd be interested, as well as some other guys you know out here. Also some other INGOers came to mind as possibly filling the "consenting adults" thing.

    edit: thought I typed "fitting", not "filling" -- I'm not setting up something for filling [a] consenting adult's thing.
     
    Last edited:

    Jackson

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    Oh yeah, something like that would be great. I was kind of assuming you'd be interested, as well as some other guys you know out here. Also some other INGOers came to mind as possibly filling the "consenting adults" thing.

    I didn't want to assume I'd be included, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
     

    iChokePeople

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    Okay, that makes more sense. Just to be clear, I wasn't poo-pooing the information. On the contrary, as a very novice student of "hands-on" self defense, I found it fascinating. And motivating. But based on the introduction of "information too good to keep to ourselves," I assumed (and that would probably be the source of the problem) that it was a general audience instructional video. It makes sense that the target audience was more limited.

    i haven't posed the question, but I think that statement was based on being passionate about what he does and having spent some time brainstorming the problem, looking at alternatives, and being pretty happy with some of the things they worked out. Rener is a very energetic, passionate guy, and really believes in "Gracie"(/Brazilian) jiu jitsu. He was invited to spend some time with some people who wanted to work that piece of the puzzle, was excited about some of the things they worked out, and decided that they should get that info out to a wider audience. One of the cool things about BJJ is that attitude of working things out and learning together, throwing it out there for everyone to try, test, and inevitably improve. You don't find many guys in the BJJ scene who are playing "I have a secret" or claiming ultra-secret stuff.
     

    ModernGunner

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    Good ideas presented in the video. Not sure how applicable they are to 'real life scenarios'. But EVERY idea is 'another tool in the toolbox'. The more ya have, the more options available to the defender.

    First thought - WHY is the defender allowing the attacker to tie them up and put them in a car (trunk or interior) in the first place? Is the plan to 'buy time' and 'make your move' later? That works great... in the movies. As noted in the clip, there's nothing 'good' for the defender from being taken to a secondary location. Being bound and taken as a hostage only benefits the attacker, except in rare instances.

    Psychology - The attacker just held a gun to your head or knife to your throat, maybe smacked ya around a bit, and threw ya into the trunk or back seat. Do you REALLY want to take their 'promise' that they're going to 'just let you go' later? WHERE do you think they're taking you, to the shopping mall?

    HOW do you think scumbag psychos like Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgeway were able to gain advantage over their victims to begin with? Neither of those (and others) are huge brutes. They need an advantage over the victim that doesn't require brute strength. Don't give it to them. One commonality in many such attacks and murders is that the victim willingly climbed into the vehicle with the attacker, for some unknown reason. Maybe there's a lesson to be learned in that.

    The 'fight' begins when the attacker surprises the defender, holding a gun or knife on the potential victim. That's when the defenders 'defensive tactics' should begin. Don't relinquish control, 'hoping' to regain it 'later'. Take control.
     
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