Run or Cower?

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  • Cameramonkey

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    I'll file this post under the broad definition of Tactics"

    First, presume you are in a prohibited environment, you didn't ignore the GFZ sign, and you don't feel confident you have an opportunity to take him out. For the sake of this discussion, the fight in run/hide/fight is not an option. (Don't want to muddy the waters) So for instance let's say this happened in the secure area of the terminal, So you don't even have your folder with you.

    Tonight I listened during the news to an "expert" say that your safest bet isnt to run, but to take cover behind a solid object. He gave no other actions, so I presume once that happens you pray and hope he doesn't come your direction or runs out of bullets.

    Given the probabilities I've seen in hitting a moving target at an increasing distance, coupled with the others around that are likely to have his attention, I can't say I agree.


    So presuming you have a clear path and are physically capable of beating feet at reasonable pace, and aren't in an open field with nowhere to go to, which would you say is better? Do you think it's safer to sprint away from the kill zone (30-50 yards tops )and take your chances on bad aim or cower and pray he doesn't get that far?

    Sadly, many of us with a spare tire, bad knee, or remember vividly the Beatles playing live (or all of the above) don't have that option. What about those that do?

    Personally I'm still relatively fast and will take my chances Forrest Gumping it if given the opportunity. I might seek cover at first to evaluate the situation, but no way am I going to wait it out.

    Edit: for simplicity and to keep this from getting way OT, assume you are traveling alone. (Im sure it still will, its INGO after all... I already see glimmers of wandering) Too many variables for this discussion to increase the size of your party.
     
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    Nojoy621

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    Just 1 shooter?

    in an airport terminal, and alone (no wife or kids) I'd go for the run. There is probably enough objects in a terminal to bound away from the threat with out break cover/concealment for much distance.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Run for cover, restart the OODA Loop, probably run again, Hide. Fight.

    FIFY

    And assuming something like Baggage Boy who was armed with a pistol, That is my plan. Or wait for a distraction and run like the wind. I agree a carbine weilding attacker would have a better shot (no pun) as you run away.

    I wish I could find the stats. Maybe they were from BBI, I dont recall. Actually I think it was a video on what to do in a kidnapping. And they discussed the accuracy of the average person at various differences and beyond 15 yards the likelihood of being hit was low and approaching single digits fast as you get farther away. Basically "you are likely to be killed if you get in the trunk, so if you can knock them down and run, your chances of survival increase exponentially if you can cover lots of ground.

    Personally I'd rather die running or attacking than in a quivering pile like that French cop on the sidewalk. At least with those first two options I have a chance.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Just 1 shooter?

    in an airport terminal, and alone (no wife or kids) I'd go for the run. There is probably enough objects in a terminal to bound away from the threat with out break cover/concealment for much distance.

    Meh. I'm relatively young. I can remarry and make more. (at least the latter half is what I tell mine when they act up. "I made, you I can take you out and make another one!" Wasnt that Cosby?)

    But seriously, yes. you can cover a Lot of ground moving sideways carefully keeping a pole/tree/etc between you and the shooter.

    And dont be afraid to break the rules. "fire door, do not exit, alarm will sound?" Screw you, Im coming through. I dont mean sprint down the middle of the terminal. Diligent use of cover/strategic exits is key.
     

    rhino

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    Since it's not, what's your next choice?

    Given the premise of the topic, I'd have to hunker down behind cover/concealment as well as I could. At some point, I'd have to make a decision if slow and deliberate movement seems less doom-proned than hiding. It would be very tough.

    I do my best to avoid the scenario of the topic, though.
     

    MontereyC6

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    Given the premise of the topic, I'd have to hunker down behind cover/concealment as well as I could. At some point, I'd have to make a decision if slow and deliberate movement seems less doom-proned than hiding. It would be very tough.

    I do my best to avoid the scenario of the topic, though.

    Same here my friend! :)
     

    rhino

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    Same here my friend! :)

    So, if some day we're both trying to cower behind the same piece of furniture, I predict that we'll "realize" that we didn't put ourselves in that situation after all and then commence to producing cover via a bunch of bullets moving rapidly in the direction of bad people?
     

    Lex Concord

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    I agree with those above in avoidance of the scenario, but sometimes, life gives little choice. Others, you do CBA and choose to fly.

    It depends. Am I alone, or do I have one or more members of my family with me?
     

    MontereyC6

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    So, if some day we're both trying to cower behind the same piece of furniture, I predict that we'll "realize" that we didn't put ourselves in that situation after all and then commence to producing cover via a bunch of bullets moving rapidly in the direction of bad people?

    You know it! Like you, I rarely put myself in a situation I can't have a firearm on me. What I don't see though, is either of us providing cover fire for the other to advance on the BG! :D
     

    Cameramonkey

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    I agree with those above in avoidance of the scenario, but sometimes, life gives little choice. Others, you do CBA and choose to fly.

    It depends. Am I alone, or do I have one or more members of my family with me?

    Alone. Post updated for ease of discussion.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    You know it! Like you, I rarely put myself in a situation I can't have a firearm on me. What I don't see though, is either of us providing cover fire for the other to advance on the BG! :D

    Different thread. Go make that one yourself. Shoo! LOL
     

    Lex Concord

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    Alone. Post updated for ease of discussion.

    Based on the leaked video, the first word that came to mind was "linebacker" (for those behind)... that guy was totally focused on what was in front of him... looked like a good opportunity for a strip-sack for an aware person behind him. However, my first commitment is do what is necessary to protect my family, which includes surviving to continue to provide for them, since they don't need direct protection from this immediate threat.

    So, realistically, probably run like hell... Second choice is to dive for cover. Whatever seems like it will give the best opportunity of survival at the time. Hard to say without being in the moment...

    Let those who volunteer and get paid to deal with such situations (they are there to protect me, since the governments for whom they work decided I should be defenseless, right?) take care of the bad guy.

    Along those lines, here's a perspective most likely haven't seen expressed very widely, if at all: https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/cops-form-perimeter-mass-murderer-goes-business/
     
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    Coach

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    A moving target is hard to hit. A few year back when my school district was beginning the use of the ALICE training we did a few exercises with airsoft guns. Multiple people who were full time LEO in the county failed to hit me as I fled the scene. We started at slightly farther than bad breath distance. But the two or three of them failed to hit me one single time.

    There are are couple of factors to consider. 1). I move well for a big man. 2). I don't think anyone shooting at me would be a solid C class shooter in USPSA. 3). I am a generous target.

    All that said I am running if I am alone. Hoping like hell the truck is nearby because I have never been a marathon runner and I have not been in shape since 1992.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Depends.

    Things to ponder:

    1) How close am I to the bad guy?
    2) Where is the bad guy's attention?
    3) Do I have available cover and/or concealment?
    4) Would I be running diagonally or directly away from the bad guy?
    5) How many other people are there?
    6) Is he approaching me, moving parallel, or moving away from me?
    7) Am I reasonably sure he's alone?

    The answers dictate the response. If he's moving away from me, is focused on someone else, and no one else is running, and the distance is too great to Terry Tate him, then staying put may be the best answer so my movement doesn't draw his eye. If he's approaching me, a bunch of people closer to him are running, and I've got a diagonal way to escape, then running it is.

    Things to remember:
    1) movement draws attention
    2) It's easier, mentally, to shoot someone in the back than the face
    3) Moving laterally is harder to hit than moving forward or back, in respect to the shooter's sight picture.
     

    foszoe

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    I would hide until Cameramonkey took off drawing his attention from me then I would run the opposite direction.
     

    foszoe

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    But seriously.....

    I equate an active shooter to a crocodile attack and I have for a long time.

    They say a gator will outrun you in a straight line BUT if you zigzag they can't turn very well.

    I will run a zig zag pattern away from the shooter. That has been in my mental preps forever. Long enough that I consider it the scenario I will follow whether its right or not.
     

    Twangbanger

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    It's a good question. I agree, distance is your friend. I run almost a thousand miles a year, and am not wasting all that effort and getting shot if I can avoid it. I'm guilty of drifting the topic a bit here, but I'm really surprised how little the advantage of distance is understood, by people who haven't tried to hit moving targets with a gun. You can find many martial arts videos where the instructor will advise to engage hand-to-hand with a gunman, even in situations where no other "friendlies" are assumed to be present to possibly help out. While they all fear knives tremendously, and want no part of being near them, it's like a total reversal when a gun is involved. It is posited that the person has little training or understanding of weapon retention, you will gain physical superiority over the person's gun hand, and anyway, running from a gunman is useless because he can just shoot you from a distance. I once had a wing-chun guy demonstrate some anti-weapon stuff to me, but started off positing the "one arm sticking out with the gun" pose that is usually assumed in these scenarios. When I wanted to modify the engagement positions to have two hands on the gun and keeping it close to the body, he acted like I was cheating or something! ("that's not how we're taught").

    (Ok, OP, I opened the doggie-door and let the rollers in...)
     
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