You Can't Tap Out In The Street

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    So, every now and then I see something posted along the lines of the following. (I've taken these three quotes totally out of context just to use as examples. I do not intend to discuss the specific conversations from which they come. I'm just using them as examples.)...

    You can't tap in the street.

    Yeah, the first three pages of the MMA Rules say not to do almost everything I was trained to do in the '70's...

    You mean there won't be anyone there to stop the fight if you have to tap out?


    Sometimes when I see people post this type of thing, I get the impression they are saying there is no "street" applicability to formal or competitive martial arts training. Because these types of training have safety rules, they are so far removed from reality the skills would be invalidated in a real, life-or-death altercation. So, I guess I'm curious about the general consensus on the board here. Are martial arts worthless because of the rules? If you can't eye jab or smash the testes, does it make them poor training methods for "reality" self-defense? Or am I totally misinterpreting what I am seeing when things of this nature are posted?

    (Again, I'm not necessarily picking on these specific quotes or their original context. They were just the fastest examples of the general type of sentiment, or my perception of it, I was able to find.)
     

    turnandshoot4

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 29, 2008
    8,625
    48
    Kouts
    1. "You can't tap in the street." No, you sure can't. However, tapping is how you learn. If you've never tapped, you've never learned some form of submission fighting.

    I do have to ask, are you taking these quotes from people who have been in many fights? Are they trained fighters?

    Many people build a construct on what they believe their self defense scenario will look like. In my experience most people believe it will look like something from a Master Ken video.

    I do have to ask, Jackson, what class have you taken that you walked away from it with no value? How could you apply that to these quotes and questions?
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    I do have to ask, are you taking these quotes from people who have been in many fights? Are they trained fighters?

    I took these quotes from some threads I read recently. They only represent the types of statements I see sometimes on the forum. I'm not talking about anyone in particular. When I see them I don't know the people and couldn't say what they have or have not done.

    I do have to ask, Jackson, what class have you taken that you walked away from it with no value? How could you apply that to these quotes and questions?

    I get value from most all the classes I've taken. That's why I keep taking them. I personally find significant value in competitive martial arts training with rules. I tapped several times earlier today and feel I'm better for it. That's what prompted my question.
     

    turnandshoot4

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 29, 2008
    8,625
    48
    Kouts
    Sometimes when I see people post this type of thing, I get the impression they are saying there is no "street" applicability to formal or competitive martial arts training. Because these types of training have safety rules, they are so far removed from reality the skills would be invalidated in a real, life-or-death altercation. So, I guess I'm curious about the general consensus on the board here. Are martial arts worthless because of the rules? If you can't eye jab or smash the testes, does it make them poor training methods for "reality" self-defense? Or am I totally misinterpreting what I am seeing when things of this nature are posted?

    (Again, I'm not necessarily picking on these specific quotes or their original context. They were just the fastest examples of the general type of sentiment, or my perception of it, I was able to find.)

    Are martial arts worthless because of the rules?
    No. Without martial arts what type of preparation is there?

    Eye jab, testicle smash etc.
    These are not easily accomplished. An eye gouge would likely be from some sort of mount, which requires training. An eye poke can be had, again not a high percentage attack.

    Let's not leave out biting. An arm bar without some sort of heavy pants on can lead to a good chunk of flesh gone if one were so inclined.



    My .02 on the basic question, does training in a sport make you better or worse in self defense?
    Better. If you are training eye gouges, bites, and crotch smashes you won't have training partners for long, which means you won't train it. If you aren't training, you are getting worse.
     

    jbombelli

    ITG Certified
    Rating - 100%
    10   0   0
    May 17, 2008
    13,010
    113
    Brownsburg, IN
    I love when people say "there's no rules on the street man" as though a trained fighter suddenly has no chance, like he suddenly doesn't know how to throw a punch or stuff a takedown. I always assumed that to mean there's nobody to stop him from beating the **** out of me.
     

    ViperJock

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    10   0   0
    Feb 28, 2011
    3,811
    48
    Fort Wayne-ish
    Some martial arts are more useful than others. Having participated in several, I can honestly say I have leaned a lot of Bullshido along with "real" fighting skills. I've been involved in a handful street fights and I'm a strong believer in open hand training.
     

    dudley0

    Nobody Important
    Rating - 100%
    99   0   0
    Mar 19, 2010
    3,725
    113
    Grant County
    An ex-BIL took martial arts training from a young age. I think it was to center him and help control some anger issues. He was good on the mat, real good. Broke his trainer's arm (on accident).

    (circa late 80's) We were out to find my sister at the county fair and three guys start veering towards us, then one makes contact with a shoulder. I turned around to confront and then told the BIL to get ready for a scuffle. He froze.... deer in headlights. Fortunately the punks were persuaded verbally to drop it.

    Afterwards I asked the BIL what happened. He said he was trained not to strike someone unless in the 'ring'. He didn't have the fight in him. Seemed counter productive at the time. I know now that he was in the training for the self discipline.

    I have taken very little hands-on type training, but I feel that what I have taken I would try and use if need be. I admit that if I was in a losing situation I would try every cheat that came to mind to win.... on the street, not the mat.
     

    2ADMNLOVER

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    May 13, 2009
    5,122
    63
    West side Indy
    I don't remember which number it is but Joe Rogan does an awesome podcast and has discussed the matter at length .

    The one I'm thinking of specifically had Jocko Willink ( long time SEAL ret. ) on it and they talked about how jujitsu and specifically BJJ , rocked all of the traditional ideas of fighting both in the SEALS and dojos .
     

    ViperJock

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    10   0   0
    Feb 28, 2011
    3,811
    48
    Fort Wayne-ish
    An ex-BIL took martial arts training from a young age. I think it was to center him and help control some anger issues. He was good on the mat, real good. Broke his trainer's arm (on accident).

    (circa late 80's) We were out to find my sister at the county fair and three guys start veering towards us, then one makes contact with a shoulder. I turned around to confront and then told the BIL to get ready for a scuffle. He froze.... deer in headlights. Fortunately the punks were persuaded verbally to drop it.

    Afterwards I asked the BIL what happened. He said he was trained not to strike someone unless in the 'ring'. He didn't have the fight in him. Seemed counter productive at the time. I know now that he was in the training for the self discipline.

    I have taken very little hands-on type training, but I feel that what I have taken I would try and use if need be. I admit that if I was in a losing situation I would try every cheat that came to mind to win.... on the street, not the mat.


    This is is a mind-set problem. I can't speak to the street value of what he learned, but it's irrelevant because he was not mentally prepared to fight.
     

    Kirk Freeman

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Mar 9, 2008
    47,968
    113
    Lafayette, Indiana
    Certain marshal arts lend themselves to the street much better than others.
    Krav Maga for example.

    Marshal Arts:

    220px-Marechal_Ney.jpg


    Field Marshal Michel "Le Rougueaud" Ney, 1769-1815.
     

    Kirk Freeman

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Mar 9, 2008
    47,968
    113
    Lafayette, Indiana
    My .02 on the basic question, does training in a sport make you better or worse in self defense?

    Absolutely makes you better. Why do you think BJJ has such a fearsome repuation? Because randori/sparring is essential to the style.

    The Gracies would train all day at Judge Machado's mountain home during the summer. They could do that as BJJ is descended from the sporterized form of QinNaDiTang Shr which became Juijitsu which became Judo.
     

    Thor

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Jan 18, 2014
    10,704
    113
    Could be anywhere
    Of course formal training is valuable, but some people tend to get stylized to the point that they can't get their mind out of the ring...or their style. Courage, tenacity, and aggression can win against superior artistry, or choreography. Training is important to maintain physical capabilities, it is also important to know its limitations and be mentally prepared to take it to the next level.

    There are many styles that will keep you physically fit yet do almost nothing to help you in a street fight.
     

    LostWander

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 25, 2016
    66
    6
    SWFL
    What many have to remember is that they are martial arts for a reason. There are components that take it beyond a system of fighting. I grew up in Shorei Kai Karate, would never use it in a real fight even though it would help me at least have a better understanding. I now take Krav and our lil mantra is "no rules in Krav" bc there arent rules to a fight.

    The comment about mindset is extremely true. If you are in the mindset that your martial art is a sport, no prob. But that means you have the wrong mindset to apply it outside the dojo.

    Anecdotal example: One of our BJJ guys and one of our Krav guys were sparring. BJJ decided to latch on, legs and arms around Krav's torso as he was standing. Might be ok in BJJ bc theres a certain chess response to it. Krav decided "ok?" And slammed him to the ground. Only thing keeping him from breaking a rib was the mat. BJJ has a reputation for a good reason but personally I really don't want to go to the ground in the parking lot when the guy possibly has friends waiting to curbstomp me. Im gonna get into it for other reasons to kind of inform my Krav side of things but personally it will mostly be used for the sporty/physical chess aspect. The Krav is what I will rely on to allow me to handle a situation or allow me to make distance to draw my weapon. And it tortures my horrible cardio to where i wanna die so i guess if I survive the training, I should be able to survive a fight lol

    Training of any kind is better than none though. But just as in gun carry, situational awareness is king and can often prevent having to be in a fight in the first place

    /endrandominterjection
     

    Thor

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Jan 18, 2014
    10,704
    113
    Could be anywhere
    Well said LostWander. One of the first lessons an old master of mine taught is that the martial arts are a level of response and should be looked at in the Defend Far to Defend Near spectrum. He said that there are some things it is useless against, like Mack, Cadillac and Smith and Wesson.
     

    jsharmon7

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    119   0   0
    Nov 24, 2008
    7,821
    113
    Freedonia
    "Tapping" simply means you made a mistake and got caught. The way humans learn is by making mistakes. The point of making those mistakes in a gym is that it's safe, just as with Force-on-Force, simunitions, etc. My opinion is that the one who survives in a life-or-death confrontation on the street is the one who has already made all of those mistakes and suffered safe defeats in training. You can't tap on the streets, but if you've suffered enough defeats in the gym then the likelihood of needing to tap on the streets is much lower.

    I think that many times those statements are just heard and repeated without any basis in fact. Just like the people who say the OC'er will be the first one shot even though nobody can find concrete examples of that happening. I've also heard that BJJ is bad because ending up on the ground in the fight will lead to the opponent's friends kicking you in the head. Can anyone show me a video where that has happened? There is an endless supply of videos on the internet thanks to cell phone video yet I haven't seen it. I'm sure it could happen, but if their friends are looking to join the fight you're in a lot of trouble anyway. Whether you're winning on the ground or winning on your feet, if their friends jump in then it's time to beat feet. Of the hundreds of fights I've seen in person or on video, they seem to fall into two categories. A) Ambush sucker punch, usually from the back or side. B) Street fight. The street fights seem to go one of two ways. A) Both sides erratically flailing their arms with wild haymakers until someone accidentally connects and knocks the opponent to the ground. B) The fight goes to the ground, one side gets to mount and ends the fight with strikes. If you're looking to defend yourself in a violent encounter then it should start with situation awareness and avoidance. If the fight can't be avoided then you need both stand-up knowledge and ground fighting knowledge. Either way, it's better to gain those skills in a safe environment before you need them.

    As far as eye gouging, biting, groin strikes, etc., those work better in theory than in practice. If you get caught in an arm bar and bite the opponent's leg, they are going to immediately destroy your arm. Biting my leg is not going to make me let go. Gouging my eye isn't going to make me let go.
     
    Last edited:

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    Absolutely makes you better. Why do you think BJJ has such a fearsome repuation? Because randori/sparring is essential to the style.

    The Gracies would train all day at Judge Machado's mountain home during the summer. They could do that as BJJ is descended from the sporterized form of QinNaDiTang Shr which became Juijitsu which became Judo.

    I'm going to veer off topic a good bit here because this is interesting and Kirk sounds pretty well read on the subject.

    I'm not very familiar with the Chinese martial arts. What does Qin Na look like in practice in the modern US school? My very minimal exposure to it is confined to standing lock flow drills. In practice, does Qin Na include clinch work, take downs, throws, positional control on the ground (like you'd see in wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, et al) in addition to the distal joint locking techniques? I'm assume it must. How do most CMA practitioners approach the grappling training and how much emphasis does it receive?

    I don't know enough about the history to have an intelligent discussion about whether BJJ and Judo were passed down from CMA initially. It seems reasonably likely to me. If that's the case, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, and other sports are heavily influenced by their rule sets. The competitors optimize the game for the rules and the practice of the art diverges a fair bit from where it started. This certainly has happened with BJJ which we know was derived from Judo. So I guess the second question is, does the current state of these grappling arts bear all that much resemblance to their CMA origins, assuming that's where they came from?
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    What many have to remember is that they are martial arts for a reason. There are components that take it beyond a system of fighting. I grew up in Shorei Kai Karate, would never use it in a real fight even though it would help me at least have a better understanding. I now take Krav and our lil mantra is "no rules in Krav" bc there arent rules to a fight.

    The comment about mindset is extremely true. If you are in the mindset that your martial art is a sport, no prob. But that means you have the wrong mindset to apply it outside the dojo.

    Anecdotal example: One of our BJJ guys and one of our Krav guys were sparring. BJJ decided to latch on, legs and arms around Krav's torso as he was standing. Might be ok in BJJ bc theres a certain chess response to it. Krav decided "ok?" And slammed him to the ground. Only thing keeping him from breaking a rib was the mat. BJJ has a reputation for a good reason but personally I really don't want to go to the ground in the parking lot when the guy possibly has friends waiting to curbstomp me. Im gonna get into it for other reasons to kind of inform my Krav side of things but personally it will mostly be used for the sporty/physical chess aspect. The Krav is what I will rely on to allow me to handle a situation or allow me to make distance to draw my weapon. And it tortures my horrible cardio to where i wanna die so i guess if I survive the training, I should be able to survive a fight lol

    Training of any kind is better than none though. But just as in gun carry, situational awareness is king and can often prevent having to be in a fight in the first place

    /endrandominterjection

    A lot of BJJ guys are used to operating within the competition rules. So behavior like that is not uncommon. Even so, "Krav" sounds like a dick. If you break your training partners, soon enough you'll be training alone.

    What does the grappling training in your Krav class look like?
     

    szorn

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 5, 2012
    167
    18
    Northcentral Indiana
    So, every now and then I see something posted along the lines of the following. (I've taken these three quotes totally out of context just to use as examples. I do not intend to discuss the specific conversations from which they come. I'm just using them as examples.)...








    Sometimes when I see people post this type of thing, I get the impression they are saying there is no "street" applicability to formal or competitive martial arts training. Because these types of training have safety rules, they are so far removed from reality the skills would be invalidated in a real, life-or-death altercation. So, I guess I'm curious about the general consensus on the board here. Are martial arts worthless because of the rules? If you can't eye jab or smash the testes, does it make them poor training methods for "reality" self-defense? Or am I totally misinterpreting what I am seeing when things of this nature are posted?

    (Again, I'm not necessarily picking on these specific quotes or their original context. They were just the fastest examples of the general type of sentiment, or my perception of it, I was able to find.)

    I can't speak for others but here are my thoughts based on 27 years of martial arts, self-defense, combatives training. Everything that I do / train for the past 17 years is and has been geared specifically for surviving explosive violence.

    While martial arts in general and MMA have many things to offer generally realistic self-defense isn't one of them. In regards to sport martial arts, not only are their rules that aren't applicable to self-defense but there are countless skills, strategies, and tactics that are not only difficult to utilize under the stress of a real altercation but can increase the risks to the person that is attempting to use them when their life is on the line. That said, MMA and sport martial arts do provide conditioning and attributes that can assist in surviving explosive violence, there is no doubt. However, specifically training in MMA with the goal
    of learning realistic applicable self-defense is like specifically training in wrestling to fight Mike Tyson in a traditional boxing match. They are totally different objectives that require different skills-sets.

    A few other things to consider- we train how we fight and we fight how we train. If a person invests hundreds of hours training to tap out in the ring, building subconscious and reflexive motor-responses to specific stimulus (pain) what do you think happens during a real situation and the person has been placed in the same situation or position that provides the same stimulus that is experienced in the ring? I am sure that you can guess. The same concept applies to numerous skills and motor programming that can often be detrimental to surviving explosive violence. I have heard of a case where a police officer was trained in traditional disarms. One day an assailant points a handgun at him at close range. He quickly disarms the assailant just as he has he had done hundreds of times in training. Then without conscious thought he hands the gun back to the assailant only to be shot at close range. Why did he hand the gun back? Because that is also something he trained to do hundreds of times. One of my previous instructors (a police vet) use to tell a similar story about one of his acquaintances (an active police officer). One day this officer gets into a physical altercation with an assailant. As a BJJ practitioner the officer was quickly drawn into a game of grappling. At one point the officer was behind the assailant performing a rear choke. The assailant began tapping the officers arm for fear of passing out. Out of habit through hundreds of repetitions the officer, without conscious thought released his choke hold which allowed the assailant to reach back, draw the officer's gun from his holster, point the gun at the officers head over his shoulder...killing the officer with one shot.

    Then there is the issue of people thinking that they will perform skills, techniques, tactics, and strategies during real situations when they have never even practiced them in a controlled training environment. Sport martial artists, for example, are quick to downplay techniques like eye gouges, biting, and groin shots. They often say something to the affect "I will be prepared for it", "I will block it", "I won't let him do it", "I will just fight through it", etc. However, when these are skills that are avoided in training because they are illegal, the fighters are being conditioned to ignore them. They can't defend against something they don't train for. This has been made obvious by several sport fights over the years that have been ended by eye gouges, biting, and groin shots.

    All of that said I personally feel that the SAID (Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands) principle applies here. If someone wants to become proefficient at sport fighting that's how they should train. If they want to be able to survive explosive violence their training should be geared toward that specific objective.

    Steve
     
    Top Bottom