Signing up for classes

[Tom Givens]

My friend and fellow trainer Dave Spaulding posted this on his Handgun Combatives page on Facebook today. I agree with him 100%. Please keep this information in mind when considering enrolling in a class.

“As with every instructor, regardless of popularity or stature, some classes just do not go and must be cancelled. There are any number of reasons for it, but one that I have seen time and time again is potential students waiting TOO LONG to sign up! Keep in mind, if I must board the metallic tube of death, I must make those travel arrangements a month out . Hotels, particularly in tourist destinations, fill up and reservations in these areas must be made in advance as well. If you are thinking about signing up for a course. DO NOT wait until the last minute. The class may fill or be cancelled due to lack of enrollment. Thanks for checking in!”

 

[Jackson]

I feel like this is a warning about the Rangemaster courses being hosted at Riley.

 

[cedartop]

I feel like this is a warning about the Rangemaster courates being hosted at Riley.

Since Tom shared it everywhere, I would say it is more of a general warning that may apply to individual situations.

 

[Randy Harris]

I'll chime is since I travel and teach...(Hey Jackson hope you are well)...While students often want to wait until the last possible minute to pay, the instructors have no idea who and how many are planning to attend that just want to wait until closer to class to pay. I have had to pull classes before where it was a few weeks to go and no one had signed up yet. I cancelled the class and promptly got emails from students (plural) asking why the class listing "disappeared" just before they were going to sign up. They were "just waiting until the class got a little closer to the date to sign up". The problem with that is that the instructors have hotel reservations and sometimes rental cars to reserve and plane tickets to purchase...and we simply can't wait and do that 3 days before the class.

The best way a student can make sure a class he wants happens? Sign up early. My Red Dot School coming up this weekend in Charlestown Indiana is not full but enough people signed up several months back that there was no question as to whether it was going to happen. I'm looking forward to my annual Indiana trip this weekend and who knows I may still get another few stragglers to sign up. But even if not, enough people signed up early enough that there was never any question as to whether the class would go on or not.

 

[rhino]

It's an issue even if the instructor(s) aren't traveling overnight. Teaching classes has opportunity costs . . . time that could be used for other things. Those who have "regular" jobs have work around our regular work hours to schedule a class, so time is at a premium. When people don't register for the class, not only will there be no assurance of being able to pay expenses, there is the waste of the day or days.

When I used to attend classes frequently, I started as one of those people who waited until the last moment. I saw some classes get canceled and in addition to making that connection, I considered how inconvenient it was to the instructor and how inconsiderate I was by doing that. Then I started registering as soon as I knew I would attend.

 

[Jackson]

From the student perspective, it's difficult to register until I am certain I can commit the time or have free funds budgeted. Still, I would not want to be an instructor with everyone waiting until the last minute.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Catch 22, but especially when you have kids / wife / 6 & 7 day work weeks... Which seems to be a majority of people these days.

 

[szorn]

I deal with this issue regularly. I work a full-time job plus teach a variety of courses each month. I have to coordinate quite a bit in order to schedule courses far enough out to be able to promote them and give people enough time to register and make arrangements to attend. It's far from easy to do and to be honest it's way more difficult then just making the commitment to attend and paying for the registration.

As a general rule I cancel all courses two weeks prior to their scheduled date if there are not enough registrations to make it happen. Frequently I have people contact me after the cancellation wanting to register. I truly understand how difficult it can be to make arrangements in advance especially with work, families, etc but at the same time I don't think it's that hard to prioritize and make a commitment to something if it's something they truly want to do.

Steve

 

[jkdbjj]

It is bad for all involved. Guy puts in for time off...maybe passes on an opportunity to do something else as he protects the days he has marked out to attend class...then the instructor decides some previously unannounced minimum attendance number has not been met---and cancels. Unless the cancellation was due to an emergency, I would not plan to attend a seminar that had been cancelled before.

 

[Coach]

It is bad for all involved. Guy puts in for time off...maybe passes on an opportunity to do something else as he protects the days he has marked out to attend class...then the instructor decides some previously unannounced minimum attendance number has not been met---and cancels. Unless the cancellation was due to an emergency, I would not plan to attend a seminar that had been cancelled before.

If you are dealing with a nationally known trainer that is traveling to the state you have to expect that there is a minimum number that must be enrolled to make the class viable. If people do not do that in advance the class is not going to go. When you are putting down good hard earned money to take a class it usually requires advanced planning. Vacation time scheduled, money saved, ammo accumulated and family scheduled around it. When not enough people commit the class is not going to happen. Plain and simple. Everyone wants to sign up for classes, matches and training at the last minute. That screws the local trainers and it causes classes to be cancelled. It is unreasonable to expect the instructor to take a loss. Not going to happen.

 

[jkdbjj]

If you are dealing with a nationally known trainer that is traveling to the state you have to expect that there is a minimum number that must be enrolled to make the class viable. If people do not do that in advance the class is not going to go. When you are putting down good hard earned money to take a class it usually requires advanced planning. Vacation time scheduled, money saved, ammo accumulated and family scheduled around it. When not enough people commit the class is not going to happen. Plain and simple. Everyone wants to sign up for classes, matches and training at the last minute. That screws the local trainers and it causes classes to be cancelled. It is unreasonable to expect the instructor to take a loss. Not going to happen.

Where a trainer is contacted by a person to check his/her schedule and to set up a class, there needs to be honest communication about (1) what the instructor charges to do the class; (2) maximum number of students the trainer believes he/she can competently train given the time allotted and the range space / classroom space available. If a trainer charges X and the maximum number of students can be Y, then the per head charge is easy to know...if the organizer wants to go that route. If there is private instruction as part of the class, then the numbers might change...but that stuff is easy.

I prefer simplicity and clarity. If I am setting up a class then I prefer to pay the person up front and then shoulder the responsibility of getting the numbers needed, or wanted.

 

[Coach]

Where a trainer is contacted by a person to check his/her schedule and to set up a class, there needs to be honest communication about (1) what the instructor charges to do the class; (2) maximum number of students the trainer believes he/she can competently train given the time allotted and the range space / classroom space available. If a trainer charges X and the maximum number of students can be Y, then the per head charge is easy to know...if the organizer wants to go that route. If there is private instruction as part of the class, then the numbers might change...but that stuff is easy.

I prefer simplicity and clarity. If I am setting up a class then I prefer to pay the person up front and then shoulder the responsibility of getting the numbers needed, or wanted.

A maximum has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. This thread is about signing up with enough time to allow the class to happen. The price is not about what this thread is about either. The competency of the instructor is not the issue either. There is not a lack of honest communication.

The thread is not about waiting until the last minute to sign up because that makes it necessary to cancel classes, and that hurts the folks who signed up and were counting on the class happening. Instructors do not want that to happen. But it is like pulling teeth to get many folks to do things before the last minute.

If you shoulder the responsibility for getting the needed numbers it has to be done in advance of the class. It cannot be done in the last few days if travel by the instructor is needed. Which is the point?

 

[cosermann]

Just spitballing here, but if min, max, and current registration levels were posted on training sites, as well as the go/no-go date, might that prompt some students sitting on the fence to get that check in the mail (for at least 2 reasons: "Oh man, this class is about to be cancelled, I better sign up," and "Oh man, that class is almost full, I better sign up.")?

Many siites that sell physical goods display inventory levels and this seems analogous.

Again, just brainstorming. There may be several reasons why this isn't a good idea that I'm not aware of.

 

[Jackson]

Just spitballing here, but if min, max, and current registration levels were posted on training sites, as well as the go/no-go date, might that prompt some students sitting on the fence to get that check in the mail (for at least 2 reasons: "Oh man, this class is about to be cancelled, I better sign up," and "Oh man, that class is almost full, I better sign up.")?

Many siites that sell physical goods display inventory levels and this seems analogous.

Again, just brainstorming. There may be several reasons why this isn't a good idea that I'm not aware of.

I like this idea.

 

[cedartop]

Just spitballing here, but if min, max, and current registration levels were posted on training sites, as well as the go/no-go date, might that prompt some students sitting on the fence to get that check in the mail (for at least 2 reasons: "Oh man, this class is about to be cancelled, I better sign up," and "Oh man, that class is almost full, I better sign up.")?

Many siites that sell physical goods display inventory levels and this seems analogous.

Again, just brainstorming. There may be several reasons why this isn't a good idea that I'm not aware of.

Some places have this. We do, I think. (Thanks to Josh of course, not me.) It seems like Eventbrite will sometimes list spots remaining, maybe that is an option you can use with them, not sure.

 

[jkdbjj]

A maximum has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. This thread is about signing up with enough time to allow the class to happen. The price is not about what this thread is about either. The competency of the instructor is not the issue either. There is not a lack of honest communication.

The thread is not about waiting until the last minute to sign up because that makes it necessary to cancel classes, and that hurts the folks who signed up and were counting on the class happening. Instructors do not want that to happen. But it is like pulling teeth to get many folks to do things before the last minute.

If you shoulder the responsibility for getting the needed numbers it has to be done in advance of the class. It cannot be done in the last few days if travel by the instructor is needed. Which is the point?

The point is: Why classes cancel.

Barring an emergency, classes should not cancel.

My view is simple: If I contact an instructor to teach a class, I find out what he charges. Then, how many students he feels comfortable training given the space available. If his price and numbers are within a range I can do, we look at tentative dates. If I lock in a date with him, I pay him. Then, whether 2 or 10 students show up is not on him---it is on me.

Unless the instructor wants to do it some other way, and assume some of the risk of low numbers, I don't think it is fair for me to mark through a week of his tight schedule and then say "sorry, we don't have the numbers".

I think it is a great idea to have what some here have mentioned---a way of listing how many slots are available and at what price.

 

[szorn]

The point is: Why classes cancel.

Barring an emergency, classes should not cancel.

My view is simple: If I contact an instructor to teach a class, I find out what he charges. Then, how many students he feels comfortable training given the space available. If his price and numbers are within a range I can do, we look at tentative dates. If I lock in a date with him, I pay him. Then, whether 2 or 10 students show up is not on him---it is on me.

Unless the instructor wants to do it some other way, and assume some of the risk of low numbers, I don't think it is fair for me to mark through a week of his tight schedule and then say "sorry, we don't have the numbers".

I think it is a great idea to have what some here have mentioned---a way of listing how many slots are available and at what price.

You are speaking from the perspective of a host that pre-pays the instructor. That is fine as long as the host pre-pays the instructor the agreed upon amount within the agreed upon time-frame. Under those circumstances it is on the host to rally enough people and if he doesn't then the course goes on and he absorbs all of the costs. Unfortunately in many cases the host does not pre-pay the instructor. It's those situations that we are discussing here. I have conducted various courses at various locations over the years and in most of those cases the host provides the training location (and covers any expenses there) and assists in promoting the event. That's it! This way the host is not forced to pay out of pocket or shoulder the burden of trying to cover his expenses, or eat that cost if he can't.

Going back to rallying enough interest- IF a person truly wants to attend an event and wants to ensure that the event doesn't get canceled he or she should be willing to actively invite family, friends, co-workers and other like-minded individuals to attend with him and to pre-register in a timely manner so the event is sure to go. This is something I do myself and it has prevented many such classes from being canceled.

Steve

 

[Jackson]

Going back to rallying enough interest- IF a person truly wants to attend an event and wants to ensure that the event doesn't get canceled he or she should be willing to actively invite family, friends, co-workers and other like-minded individuals to attend with him and to pre-register in a timely manner so the event is sure to go. This is something I do myself and it has prevented many such classes from being canceled.

Steve

Easier said than done in many cases. I have plenty of friends I've been trying to get to training for years. It's rare that they actually go.

 

[Coach]

I thought posting classes nearly a year in advance would give people plenty of time to make plans, schedule vacation, and so forth. That has proven to be untrue.

 

[cedartop]

I thought posting classes nearly a year in advance would give people plenty of time to make plans, schedule vacation, and so forth. That has proven to be untrue.

I used to think that as well, but IME it has mad no difference over classes posted a couple months out. Not sure if it is because of the short attention span of the average American or what.