Is Appendix faster

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Bfish

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Feb 24, 2013
    5,801
    48
    For me it is better.
    I also think it's faster all things considered. I don't know that a guy who is always at 3:00 is going to see a significant initial difference on a shot timer though, but if he had as much time on each method; appendix has got to be quicker I think. I'm going to run off and try and find an article I read about this not too long ago.
     

    Vigilant

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Jul 12, 2008
    11,659
    83
    Plainfield
    For my application, it is faster, and better. I’m not a gamer, I carry for defense, I train for, and practice for the same. In FoF while on the ground under someone, appendix is the only mode of carry I can still access the gun and get to work. Same with driving, sitting in a restaurant, etc. No one person can speak for others, but I have found so far, appendix to be the bestest, fastest, all around mode of carry. YMMV.
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    Faster and better are not always the same thing. So I'll answer separately.

    Speed?
    This is hard to measure without bias and also hard to eliminate other variables. If you take the same shooter who has been using the same method for some period of time and make them switch, they are likely to be faster using the method with which they have more practice (at least for some not-insignificant adjustment period). Comparing two different shooters introduces all new variables. Specific holsters, hand start positions, concealment methods, and even body type matter too.

    I think when you compare the draw stroke paths, there are some efficiencies provided by appendix and some by a 3 o'clock position. From around 3 o'clock with a little drop on the holster, disregarding concealment, and starting with hands rested at the sides, the wrist or forearm is resting right over the gun. Just in front of the hip, forward of 3:00 is probably the most efficient in this way. This puts the gun directly in the natural path of the arm and can be faster, especially if the shooter uses a snatching motion to gather the initial grip on the way up (vs a more positive driving downward motion to secure the grip, necessitating a change in hand direction). The appendix position, on the other hand, places the gun directly underneath the eye. So the path of the hand to the gun may be longer, but the path from established grip to having the gun in the field of view under the dominant eye is shorter. The ability to efficiently pick up the sights in the cone of vision and drive them to target is where the most speed is gained in the draw (disregarding concealment), at least for me. Which one wins? Depends on where the hands start I think.

    Then we have to add in concealment. There are a lot of variables here, but I'll assume a lifting method for clearing concealment for each because it works with both open and closed garmets. Appendix provides the advantage of keeping the arms/hands in front of the body where they are generally more dexterous and reliable. The amount of movement from each hand needed to clear the pistol and establish grip seems to be reduced from appendix. The off hand can generally be used to lift the clothing while the dominant hand moves to grip simultaneously. With a 3:00 and back carry position, the shooting hand is usually going to get involved with clearing the concealment, adding a step before grip is established. This is not always the case, as some shooters can clear strong-side concealment with the off hand. Even for them the path of the off hand is longer and less reliable. I think Appendix wins in speed from concealment for this reason.

    Burl asked for draw times so I will add some comparison between a friend and myself. I carry on my strong side at 3:00. Jason carries appendix. If I use a reference time period where we both had a very similar amount of practice time, training, and similar overall skill level, I can compare draw times to first shot and get as close to apples-to-apples as I will probably find. During the reference time period I'd say a 1.75 sec draw from concealment in to a 4" circle at 5-7yd was a good average for me. I'd ocassionally push down below 1.5 and sometimes be closer to 2.0 sec. Jason, on the other hand, would average 1.5 sec, 1.0 on the fast side and 1.75 on the slow side. This is with a very similar level of practice and overall proficiency in most shooting areas during refrence time period. In the same time period, if you'd started Jason from a strong side holster position, his times would increase to look like mine. So I think there is roughly a 0.25 sec difference in speed from one method to the other based on those observations.

    Holster types, hand start position, concealment, and experience with the draw all matter when we are talking fractions of a second. So giving a definitive answer is difficult.

    I'll post separately about "better" and talk about the grapple that Vigilant mentioned. That is a whole can of worms on its own.
     
    Last edited:

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    Better?
    Well, define better. Based on what criteria?

    I tend to think Appendix is generally more accessible. The gun can be reached easily with either hand and from a greater range of positions than can a 3:00 holster position. Seated in a car or closed space, Appendix is easier to access. Lying supine, appendix is easier to access. Lying prone puts you on top of the gun with appendix. How often do these positions matter? Probably not often, except when driving or in a ground grappling scenario.

    Vigilant pointed out that with someone on top of him he can still access the pistol in appendix but cannot from 3:00. I think this depends on where on top the other guy is. Is he mounted, is he in my guard, is it a scramble? Generally though, I agree. It also puts the gun in a position where you have greater dexterity and two hands to defend it

    I do think Appendix increases accessibility in general. Not just for you, but also for your adversary. If the gun is right in front of you and you can reach it with both hands, then so can he. He has an extra hand close enough to foul your draw or reach for your gun. (Obviously these statements assume a neutral start position facing each other.) You now potentially have two control both of his hands in order to clear a path to your gun. With strong side carry you may only need to control the hand closest to your gun to make it inaccessible to him.

    In reality though, we're talking about snapshots in a rapidly-changing scene. So which position is "better" may change from one moment to another in the same fight.

    I'll try to post some more detailed thoughts on this later.
     

    downrange72

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    May 3, 2009
    6,162
    63
    SW Indy/Camby/West Newton
    I've seen other rotund individuals do it, but for me it wasn't comfortable. Maybe if I can catch up with Coach's newfound sveltness I'll reconsider. I tried it in a FoF class and was not a fan.

    As far as speed. I think Jackson is posting the appropriate ponderings
     

    chezuki

    Human
    Rating - 100%
    48   0   0
    Mar 18, 2009
    34,151
    113
    Behind Bars
    I am far from a high-level competition shooter, but I did shoot production for a couple years with the standard DOH holster just past 3:00. I had no rigorous practice schedule, but I did practice draws/dry fire/reloads on a semi-regular basis.

    For the past couple years I have committed to compete the same way that I carry, which is AIWB. The timer indicates my drawstroke is as fast or faster now from concealment than it was then from the open-carry drop offset. I’m no quick-draw, but I am consistently under 2s with good hits.
     

    Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    That fact that many disparage the appendix position makes me think that there might be something advantageous there. This recent Gabe White trend here on INGO also causes one to think. There is not disputing Gabe White's ability and accomplishments so his methods are worthy of some study and reflection.

    I have been watching people in the Carry Gun Matches and in classes like the Carry League lately and really for some time. It has me thinking.

    The presentation needs to be fast in order to be considered. The appendix carry seems to give nothing away there. Perhaps the most difficult thing would be where the shooter hangs out with his/her hands naturally. Hands hanging at sides would seem to be a disadvantage for appendix as opposed to 3 o'clock, because as Jackson says the arm resting on the gun is a valuable reference point. I struggle to keep my gun hand empty in public and I think doing that and having it hover over the gun in appendix would be a struggle to change. If the hand is hovering the speed would seem to be at least as fast at least from an economy of motion standpoint.
     

    riverman67

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Jan 16, 2009
    4,105
    48
    Morgan County
    I'm no expert
    But it seems to me that being able to access the gun easily with either hand is a huge advantage of appendix. I'm rotund I cannot get to my gun with my weak hand carrying at 3 o'clock. I resort to a suboptimal pocket gun on the left side because appendix is just too uncomfortable. I did try it if I can get rid of 50 pounds I might try it again
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    Another consideration might be the concealed draw that BBI teaches. It would be difficult to make it look like you're reaching for your wallet or to conceal your draw behind an object from appendix.

    On the other hand, a behind the hip draw *looks* like a traditional draw stroke like people are uses to. At least what I think of all the way back to cowboy shows when I was a kid. So for most people an appendix draw may look less like a draw stroke. Or... Maybe a hardened criminal sees the appendix position the same way because that's how criminals carry? Maybe not? Just some thoughts.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Another consideration might be the concealed draw that BBI teaches. It would be difficult to make it look like you're reaching for your wallet or to conceal your draw behind an object from appendix.

    On the other hand, a behind the hip draw *looks* like a traditional draw stroke like people are uses to. At least what I think of all the way back to cowboy shows when I was a kid. So for most people an appendix draw may look less like a draw stroke. Or... Maybe a hardened criminal sees the appendix position the same way because that's how criminals carry? Maybe not? Just some thoughts.

    I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle with any of that.
     

    rvb

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Jan 14, 2009
    6,396
    63
    IN (a refugee from MD)
    The question is a simple one. Is it the faster way to go? Is it better?

    That fact that many disparage the appendix position makes me think that there might be something advantageous there.

    :laugh:

    Like everything.... it depends.

    looking at it purely from speed...

    In ideal conditions (standing, clothes not a factor, etc), it is slower for me. when I started shooting open division many years ago I experimented with lots of holster positions. with the gun up front, the physical speed might be a tick better (better, more natural/streamlined hand motion, etc), but I couldn't ever get on target faster. It was all the extra twisting motions needed of the gun to get it lined up and that impact on consistency. From a 3-oclock-ish hip position, the gun pointed more naturally to the target. I was less likely to over swing, etc. Differences with irons might have been a little less significant, but with a dot, getting the dot lined up fast is way more critical than getting the gun up fast.

    The flip side is in the less than ideal conditions... eg sitting or from the ground. The backs/arms of chairs, the ground, seatbelts, etc can make getting a gun from the hip difficult as they get in the way of the elbow, but it's way faster from apx.

    In crowds (which I try to avoid, but it happens), I definitely prefer apx. I feel more in control of it. Less likely for people to bump into it, etc, don't need lots of elbow room for a draw, etc.

    being a man of substance, apx isn't as comfortable, but it has it's place....
    also, as a man of substance, the gut makes it difficult to reholster w/o muzzling various places I don't want muzzled. With a hot gun, I take the holster off, insert gun, and re-holster the whole, um, package. I do my apx draw practice w/ a blue gun.

    -rvb
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Faster and better are not always the same thing. So I'll answer separately.

    Speed?
    This is hard to measure without bias and also hard to eliminate other variables. If you take the same shooter who has been using the same method for some period of time and make them switch, they are likely to be faster using the method with which they have more practice (at least for some not-insignificant adjustment period). Comparing two different shooters introduces all new variables. Specific holsters, hand start positions, concealment methods, and even body type matter too.


    I think when you compare the draw stroke paths, there are some efficiencies provided by appendix and some by a 3 o'clock position. From around 3 o'clock with a little drop on the holster, disregarding concealment, and starting with hands rested at the sides, the wrist or forearm is resting right over the gun. Just in front of the hip, forward of 3:00 is probably the most efficient in this way. This puts the gun directly in the natural path of the arm and can be faster, especially if the shooter uses a snatching motion to gather the initial grip on the way up (vs a more positive driving downward motion to secure the grip, necessitating a change in hand direction). The appendix position, on the other hand, places the gun directly underneath the eye. So the path of the hand to the gun may be longer, but the path from established grip to having the gun in the field of view under the dominant eye is shorter. The ability to efficiently pick up the sights in the cone of vision and drive them to target is where the most speed is gained in the draw (disregarding concealment), at least for me. Which one wins? Depends on where the hands start I think.

    Then we have to add in concealment. There are a lot of variables here, but I'll assume a lifting method for clearing concealment for each because it works with both open and closed garmets. Appendix provides the advantage of keeping the arms/hands in front of the body where they are generally more dexterous and reliable. The amount of movement from each hand needed to clear the pistol and establish grip seems to be reduced from appendix. The off hand can generally be used to lift the clothing while the dominant hand moves to grip simultaneously. With a 3:00 and back carry position, the shooting hand is usually going to get involved with clearing the concealment, adding a step before grip is established. This is not always the case, as some shooters can clear strong-side concealment with the off hand. Even for them the path of the off hand is longer and less reliable. I think Appendix wins in speed from concealment for this reason.

    Burl asked for draw times so I will add some comparison between a friend and myself. I carry on my strong side at 3:00. Jason carries appendix. If I use a reference time period where we both had a very similar amount of practice time, training, and similar overall skill level, I can compare draw times to first shot and get as close to apples-to-apples as I will probably find. During the reference time period I'd say a 1.75 sec draw from concealment in to a 4" circle at 5-7yd was a good average for me. I'd ocassionally push down below 1.5 and sometimes be closer to 2.0 sec. Jason, on the other hand, would average 1.5 sec, 1.0 on the fast side and 1.75 on the slow side. This is with a very similar level of practice and overall proficiency in most shooting areas during refrence time period. In the same time period, if you'd started Jason from a strong side holster position, his times would increase to look like mine. So I think there is roughly a 0.25 sec difference in speed from one method to the other based on those observations.

    Holster types, hand start position, concealment, and experience with the draw all matter when we are talking fractions of a second. So giving a definitive answer is difficult.

    I'll post separately about "better" and talk about the grapple that Vigilant mentioned. That is a whole can of worms on its own.

    It is easy to quote Jackson so until I have more time that is what I will do.
     

    jkdbjj

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 11, 2015
    117
    18
    rural
    In my experience it depends on what you are wearing. In a normal day suit and tie...if gun needs to be concealed then it is slower with a lot more moving parts than carrying in a more conventional 3 or 4 o'clock position. Sweeping a jacket back with draw hand is pretty simple...as is getting at the gun with shoulder carry. Lifting dress shirt, T shirt, and grabbing mid-line is not so simple for me...and ends up often with a fist full of gun and shirt tail.

    If I could daily dress like I see Gabe White dressed in his videos then it might be a good alternative.

    I think the point made about getting to the gun with either hand is an excellent point.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    For me, it depends on "which appendix."

    For actual appendix carry, i.e. below where my appendix would be, it's slower for me to get my closed-front concealment out of the way than it is for junk carry. With an open concealment, it's at a weird "neither fish nor fowl" positions that just seems to be slower for me to access than 3:00. It just happens that with my body shape, it conceals much better there than junk carry and 3:00 is also occupied.

    If I put the holster touching the belt buckle (aka junk carry or what most people consider appendix carry), it's faster for me if I'm wearing closed-front concealment than 3:00. If I compare an open garment and 3:00 carry, it's about the same.
     
    Top Bottom