Announcing The Creation Of The Firearms Trainers Association

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  • Jackson

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    Vigilant

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    I'm on the fence, I see a fiefdom starting? I've not trained with Vickers, Reid, or Gonzales, I have with Spaulding and Hackathorn in my 1911/P35 days, and I see a rehash of Gunsite/ Modern Technique training, and an us vs. them mentality. Spaulding has really put me off as late. I've trained in numerous venues with many different instructors, and I take knowledge from EVERYONE of them, good and bad. I see it becoming a pay to play, but play MY way sort of deal. Hope I'm wrong, but Idpa became so silly it isn't worth the time anymore, and look who where big proponents of that?
     

    Jackson

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    I'm on the fence, I see a fiefdom starting? I've not trained with Vickers, Reid, or Gonzales, I have with Spaulding and Hackathorn in my 1911/P35 days, and I see a rehash of Gunsite/ Modern Technique training, and an us vs. them mentality. Spaulding has really put me off as late. I've trained in numerous venues with many different instructors, and I take knowledge from EVERYONE of them, good and bad. I see it becoming a pay to play, but play MY way sort of deal. Hope I'm wrong, but Idpa became so silly it isn't worth the time anymore, and look who where big proponents of that?

    There's not really any one standard system out there. You don't really even have many big name instructors who approach things as if they have considered what the problem is likely to be. If they have, they don't characterize the problem the same way. That's not necessarily a big problem because many of the skills are universal, but it is a difference in philosophy that will make standardization difficult.
     

    cedartop

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    I see a lot of potential problems. More than I can list right now. As more details become available some of those concerns will probably be addressed.

    I have a lot of respect for Hackathon and Spaulding but these guys all have a lot of well known (and I am sure lesser known) biases. If I was a AIWB instructor who uses a red dot, would I be denied approval? At least one of those guys is that petty. Another big issue is what Jackson mentions, if say they approved James Yeager (for example) that may make me completely disregard anything else they do. For others it may he something like if they approve Mike Swisher, that may turn them off.

    It is pretty clear by who is involved here that this is a stab at the heart of the Instagram famous. I don't have a problem with that, but is it just a lot of "get off my lawn"?

    Someone in the comments said it is their attempt to stay relevant. I don't think that is it. These guys can still sell out classes on a regular basis and Hackathon is almost retired and Spaulding says he is trying to wind it down.

    Like I said, interesting.
     

    Vigilant

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    I see a lot of potential problems. More than I can list right now. As more details become available some of those concerns will probably be addressed.

    I have a lot of respect for Hackathon and Spaulding but these guys all have a lot of well known (and I am sure lesser known) biases. If I was a AIWB instructor who uses a red dot, would I be denied approval? At least one of those guys is that petty. Another big issue is what Jackson mentions, if say they approved James Yeager (for example) that may make me completely disregard anything else they do. For others it may he something like if they approve Mike Swisher, that may turn them off.

    It is pretty clear by who is involved here that this is a stab at the heart of the Instagram famous. I don't have a problem with that, but is it just a lot of "get off my lawn"?

    Someone in the comments said it is their attempt to stay relevant. I don't think that is it. These guys can still sell out classes on a regular basis and Hackathon is almost retired and Spaulding says he is trying to wind it down.

    Like I said, interesting.
    My point exactly, Spaulding for one is extremely biased, since you were a Suarez trainer at one time, does that disqualify you as relevant and approved? This is a big rabbit hole, and it runs deep in ego, feelings, and cash! Don't have an answer for what is needed, but I think a "governing" body for training is needed, not sure how to get there though?
     

    Jackson

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    My point exactly, Spaulding for one is extremely biased, since you were a Suarez trainer at one time, does that disqualify you as relevant and approved? This is a big rabbit hole, and it runs deep in ego, feelings, and cash! Don't have an answer for what is needed, but I think a "governing" body for training is needed, not sure how to get there though?

    How can you have a governing body when there is no agreement on approaches? At best, you get two or three competing camps, which is basically what you have now.
     

    Vigilant

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    Funny thing is, Lotsa big-name guys have a hard on for Suarez, but thiis new guy, a MARSOC Raider, admits on YouTube to being a two time felon, and NOTHING? I mean this guy's was convicted of felonieS, but got his **** straight and now here he is! He's doing a crap ton of good too, but making money as well. Spaulding and Vickers hold Suarez in great disdain because he plead, but is what he teaches any less relevant than what they teach?
     

    Vigilant

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    Before it goes there, I've trained with Gabe, and learned A LOT, I don't agree with his business ethics/practices sometimes, but I never agree with my wife? Does that make any of us less relevant? Yeager is his own can of worms, but I learned from him as well? Along gwith the folks that have left there, as in Shay from Mindset Labs, I learned more in two days FoF from his class than any other trainer that I can think of, save Louie's shotgun class? Unfortunately, the training world is now full of BTDT guys after 17years of GWOT. I gave up my NRA Instructor creds long ago because of their ethos and Nomenclature. Does me not having NRA creds make me less of a teacher(even though I don't teach), since I'm only a moderate speed, moderate drag veteran with some LE experience? The training world is getting ridiculous with petty fiefdoms, and this organization, with the founders, seems as if it is going to be more of the same pettiness? I guess I'm just crotchety and jaded, but I've got a 214!;)
     
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    Vigilant

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    I'm on a rant, and since the "founders" are all big names in the game, are they trying to force out those who don't hold their same bias, ethos, values, approaches, etc.? It seems to me they want to steer everyone and everything to their mode. I realize it's new, but probably isn't, and I will take a wait and see, but, again I see a petty fiefdom in the works.
     

    cedartop

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    My point exactly, Spaulding for one is extremely biased, since you were a Suarez trainer at one time, does that disqualify you as relevant and approved? This is a big rabbit hole, and it runs deep in ego, feelings, and cash! Don't have an answer for what is needed, but I think a "governing" body for training is needed, not sure how to get there though?

    To be fair to Dave, Randy Harris and I have both trained with him while we Suarez instructors and he was nothing but complimentary. He never mentioned Gabe or any of his shenanigans except to say that he puts out some good material. That is just my experience. He may have run him down at other times, I don't know.
     

    Vigilant

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    To be fair to Dave, Randy Harris and I have both trained with him while we Suarez instructors and he was nothing but complimentary. He never mentioned Gabe or any of his shenanigans except to say that he puts out some good material. That is just my experience. He may have run him down at other times, I don't know.
    I had a different experience, and one of his YT vids also has a semi veiled dig. I benefited from his class, as I have from all the classes I’ve attended, I just wish that everyone could check their egos, biases, pet peeves, what have you, and deliver a product. Which, coincidentally, Gabe does better than the rest I’ve seen. He has a different persona online than in class, just as Yeager does, but I know the $$$’s run him in the end. As I said, I’m skeptical, but will keep an open mind about this venture, as I do think there should be a vetting or standards related to defensive firearm training.
     

    Randy Harris

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    To be fair to Dave, Randy Harris and I have both trained with him while we Suarez instructors and he was nothing but complimentary. He never mentioned Gabe or any of his shenanigans except to say that he puts out some good material. That is just my experience. He may have run him down at other times, I don't know.

    For sure. He never said anything in any of the 3 classes I attended about really ANYONE in particular in the industry in a negative way. He says 90% of the people in the industry teach about 90% the same things with just a bit of variation...and almost none of it is "likely to get you killed". He told me in front of class "Randy, brother, I'd go thru the door with you any time"... so apparently any other associations I might have apparently do not cloud his judgement at least in regards to proficiency.

    As to the "instructor vetting" while in theory that is a great idea I fear in practice it may become more of a "popularity contest" or a measure of who is in a particular "in crowd".....
     
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