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  • Coach

    Grandmaster
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    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
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    Coatesville

    Coach

    Grandmaster
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    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
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    Coatesville
    Both TacCon and this class are very good. Cost is similar for each. Except that Tac Con 2019 is in New Orleans so travel and time will be significant in addition. With this class once you sign up you are in the class and going to be able to participate. At Tac Con the live fire segments fill up quickly and you may have to simply watch rather than participate. You can learn either way.

    Both are going to require some prior training.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    If your avg guy had to choose between TacCon and this course, which one and why?

    Very different from each other in some ways. As Coach said of course one is close and one isn't but there is a lot more to it than that. One thing we noticed at the Tac Con is that many of the students there were fairly new and really didn't know a lot of the range rules. For example, not bending over to retrieve your mags until everyone is in the holster. While there are some beginner offerings at the Conference due to the short time frames of the classes you will not get the full class experience. Looking back at my earlier Tactical Conferences versus now I would definitely say there are a lot more less experienced shooters attending now than there used to be. Now, that being said it sounds like the class in question from John is not a beginner class either. If it is similar to the block I took from him a couple of years ago at the Tactical Conference, and it sounds like it is, it seems like it would be a very good stand alone course for a defensive minded practitioner. Especially maybe for one who doesn't plan on doing a whole lot of class taking.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    Very different from each other in some ways. As Coach said of course one is close and one isn't but there is a lot more to it than that. One thing we noticed at the Tac Con is that many of the students there were fairly new and really didn't know a lot of the range rules. For example, not bending over to retrieve your mags until everyone is in the holster. While there are some beginner offerings at the Conference due to the short time frames of the classes you will not get the full class experience. Looking back at my earlier Tactical Conferences versus now I would definitely say there are a lot more less experienced shooters attending now than there used to be. Now, that being said it sounds like the class in question from John is not a beginner class either. If it is similar to the block I took from him a couple of years ago at the Tactical Conference, and it sounds like it is, it seems like it would be a very good stand alone course for a defensive minded practitioner. Especially maybe for one who doesn't plan on doing a whole lot of class taking.

    My past experiences at the conference were more about "shopping" for teachers with whom I wanted to train later and networking. Like you said, it's a very different thing than a standalone class. I think the more training you've completed, the more valuable the conference experience can be.
     

    jlw

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 30, 2018
    127
    28
    Georgia
    If your avg guy had to choose between TacCon and this course, which one and why?

    TacCon lets you get a sample from numerous instructors and numerous subjects over a three day period. The first year I went, I "themed" my class selection by attending as many blocks as possible on setting up training programs. The next year, I themed class selection around active shooter incidents.

    Typically, you'll have two or three live fire sessions, two or three hands on sessions, and two or three classroom sessions all taking place at the same time. They are usually in two hour blocks, but sometimes they will be longer.

    TacCon is the biggest bargain in the training community; however, the format doesn't allow you to as in-depth on topics like a weekend class will do.

    The schedule from the 2018 event is attached.
     

    Attachments

    • TacCon18_Schedule_3.16.pdf
      405.2 KB · Views: 6

    Never A Victim

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    12   0   0
    Sep 25, 2012
    294
    18
    Hamilton County
    Be very cautious of this company and it's head instructor, John Murphy.

    There was a female student who recently took a class from John where he made sexual comments specifically to her during the class such as asking her if she was into older men and making references to how to hold a pistol with how she would hold a penis. After the class, he was emailing her asking to take her out to dinner. When she first posted a review of his behavior on his facebook page, he immediately shut down the facebook page. He then later made a half-truth apology and a few hours later made a full account of what he said to her. It was absolutely disgusting.

    I can't speak to the content of his courses, but I do know for a fact that he made sexual advances toward a female student. Under no circumstances is this ok. Ever.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Be very cautious of this company and it's head instructor, John Murphy.

    There was a female student who recently took a class from John where he made sexual comments specifically to her during the class such as asking her if she was into older men and making references to how to hold a pistol with how she would hold a penis. After the class, he was emailing her asking to take her out to dinner. When she first posted a review of his behavior on his facebook page, he immediately shut down the facebook page. He then later made a half-truth apology and a few hours later made a full account of what he said to her. It was absolutely disgusting.

    I can't speak to the content of his courses, but I do know for a fact that he made sexual advances toward a female student. Under no circumstances is this ok. Ever.

    The content is great. As to John's mistakes, I know I have made my own and have been for the most part forgiven and have moved on. It will be up to each individual it they choose to give John a chance. I would be willing to think he has learned his lesson. Time will tell. If his mistake is too much for some, that is their decision and I would not hold it against them.
     

    riverman67

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Jan 16, 2009
    4,105
    48
    Morgan County
    If he would have said those things to your daughter or wife, would you still have the opinion of "he's learned his lesson"?

    If I can get my wife to a few entry level classes and get her to actually practice instead of talking about it. I will make her go to this class. This stuff is that important.
    I don't know anything about the incident you described and making students uncomfortable in that way isn't productive for anyone.
    That being said I spent a weekend with the man and while the language was a little salty and most of the video content was graphic, it all had a purpose.
    I'm pretty sure the ladies, there were 4 I think, in this class were very happy with John's approach and none of them were bothered in the manner you describe.
     

    Never A Victim

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    12   0   0
    Sep 25, 2012
    294
    18
    Hamilton County
    If I can get my wife to a few entry level classes and get her to actually practice instead of talking about it. I will make her go to this class. This stuff is that important.
    I don't know anything about the incident you described and making students uncomfortable in that way isn't productive for anyone.
    That being said I spent a weekend with the man and while the language was a little salty and most of the video content was graphic, it all had a purpose.
    I'm pretty sure the ladies, there were 4 I think, in this class were very happy with John's approach and none of them were bothered in the manner you describe.

    Since you didn't know about this situation, here are his words of what he did:
    In my life, I have never done anything to have caused another this much anguish, and myself this much shame. Without thought I abandoned principles and standards. And that moment of selfish thoughtlessness has brought this pain, undeserved for her, much deserved for me. The hard truth here is that I violated basic tenets of what an instructor should adhere to. The words I spoke, publicly and privately, ran the gamut of acceptable to risqué to, frankly, vulgar, likening a sex act to grip and a trigger squeeze. I mistook laughter at my comments from all as affirmation. In retrospect, well, I should have known better. I can't believe that I actually asked in private, "Would you date an older man? Can I chat you up?" And in an email with the class picture, “Dinner and a movie?” What is worse still is that I was utterly clueless as to the impact of my words on her. And this to a woman, a mother, that sought my counsel on how to better defend herself and her child. I'm disgusted with myself and failed those that support and believe in me.
    Last night I was shocked, and without thinking of the impact, hid her review. I have made the review public again for all to see while I contemplate what comes next.
    At the start of the class I hold up a mirror for students to look into, and ask them to see themselves as they are, not as they think they are. This entire event has been that mirror for me. And my lack of judgement and character is sobering.
    I hope to be able to offer an apology in person, if she allows it, so that she can know what I feel at this moment. Until that opportunity, I truly am sorry, and know no other way to express it.



    And this is someone you would want your wife to train with? Maybe I'm the only one here who thinks that an instructor who gives a free class to a female and then makes sexual references towards her is wrong? And then tries to meet up with her after class? I don't care if he "learned his lesson." This happened less than a month ago. I'm speechless at some of your responses to this.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    .
    And this is someone you would want your wife to train with? Maybe I'm the only one here who thinks that an instructor who gives a free class to a female and then makes sexual references towards her is wrong? And then tries to meet up with her after class? I don't care if he "learned his lesson." This happened less than a month ago. I'm speechless at some of your responses to this.

    I didn't hear anyone say what he did wasn't wrong. It was. He admits it was. Don't get the idea that I am defending John Murphy. As a matter of fact I don't care for his style. What I try not to do though is be holier than thou or go around torpedoing other instructors. Although that may be a good strategy, more customers for me.
     

    jlw

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 30, 2018
    127
    28
    Georgia
    A mistake is accidentally putting salt in the cake batter when you meant to use sugar. What John did was not a mistake, and he will have to live with the repercussions of it for the rest of time.

    I would not have been okay with such actions in a class whether or not my wife/daughter/mother/sister were in the class. I am not okay with his actions.

    However, I accept his ownership of the incident, and as I personally believe his course content will keep good people out of graves and prisons, I'll still recommend his classes. In fact, I am hosting him later this year.

    I respect the opinion of those who choose to write him off forever.
     

    Coach

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    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    Let those without blame cast the first stone. As a middle aged man who has said and done things that he wished he had never said or done. I understand this situation and its serious nature. I also have years of experience of people taking shots at me for the times I have stumbled and fell. I own the things I have done as well all do.

    I was aware of it before the class at Riley. I accept his ownership of those actions. I was not there to see or hear first hand. I am not on face book but I had seen the post. I never discussed it with John personally. I have no doubt about his regrets from some comments he has made. I try to live and let live as much as possible. I am confident that a lesson was learned. He is not perfect and neither are any of us. A chipped cup is still useful. John has a lot to contribute. People are a mixed bag.

    I took my 18 year old daughter to the class in Riley because I felt like she needed the preparation for living on her own. I feel like I was correct in that judgement and I call the class a success. I think the other ladies in the class would call it a success as well. I will be asking them to confirm.
     

    Tamara

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 12, 2008
    423
    18
    Broad Ripple, near t
    I think the other ladies in the class would call it a success as well. I will be asking them to confirm.

    I've known John in person since he invited myself, Melody Lauer, and Tiffany Johnson out to audit a new class curriculum he had set up in late 2015. During that visit he picked up Tiffany and myself from the airport and ferried us to and from the class both days (we had flown and were in a hotel, Mel was staying with friends and had access to a borrowed truck.) On the day we were to fly back, we detoured and he gave Tiffany and me a guided tour of Madison's home at Montpelier.

    I have never personally seen any objectionable behavior beyond his (somewhat caricatured during a class) salty USMC language. You'll certainly be exposed to the same and more in an Ayoob class.

    I do not at all disbelieve the student's account.

    I will say that the manner in which it, and John's response, has been related in this thread is inconsistent with my observation of the social media events as they occurred.

    To the best of my knowledge, and according to Baraka Ulrich James who is a personal friend of both parties, abject apologies have been tendered and accepted. It is certainly something he will never repeat.

    I still consider John a friend and would have no qualms sharing a range with him again at any time.
     
    Last edited:

    riverman67

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Jan 16, 2009
    4,105
    48
    Morgan County
    Since you didn't know about this situation, here are his words of what he did:
    In my life, I have never done anything to have caused another this much anguish, and myself this much shame. Without thought I abandoned principles and standards. And that moment of selfish thoughtlessness has brought this pain, undeserved for her, much deserved for me. The hard truth here is that I violated basic tenets of what an instructor should adhere to. The words I spoke, publicly and privately, ran the gamut of acceptable to risqué to, frankly, vulgar, likening a sex act to grip and a trigger squeeze. I mistook laughter at my comments from all as affirmation. In retrospect, well, I should have known better. I can't believe that I actually asked in private, "Would you date an older man? Can I chat you up?" And in an email with the class picture, “Dinner and a movie?” What is worse still is that I was utterly clueless as to the impact of my words on her. And this to a woman, a mother, that sought my counsel on how to better defend herself and her child. I'm disgusted with myself and failed those that support and believe in me.
    Last night I was shocked, and without thinking of the impact, hid her review. I have made the review public again for all to see while I contemplate what comes next.
    At the start of the class I hold up a mirror for students to look into, and ask them to see themselves as they are, not as they think they are. This entire event has been that mirror for me. And my lack of judgement and character is sobering.
    I hope to be able to offer an apology in person, if she allows it, so that she can know what I feel at this moment. Until that opportunity, I truly am sorry, and know no other way to express it.



    And this is someone you would want your wife to train with? Maybe I'm the only one here who thinks that an instructor who gives a free class to a female and then makes sexual references towards her is wrong? And then tries to meet up with her after class? I don't care if he "learned his lesson." This happened less than a month ago. I'm speechless at some of your responses to this.


    I'm not defending what he did.
    My thanks for posting the above, saves me the effort of trying to figure out what the hell everyone is talking about.
    It seems to me that the man regrets his actions and has sincerely attempted to apologize both personally and publicly. What else can he do?

    My short answer to your question about my wife going to class with John is Yes .
    I'll add that if this type of incident was repeated my answer would be different.
     
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