IF you carry have you considered?

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • NHT3

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    52   0   0
    From what I've seen since I've been working as RSO, I would estimate that 90% of the people carrying are horribly irresponsible. How can I know they are irresponsible you might ask? See pics.. Typical 5 yard target and typical method of carry I see. When I see holsters that don’t allow one-handed re-holster, carry without a holster, clip on holster with no belt, completely missing a 23X35 target at 5 yards, I know these people don’t train. Prior to arming yourself in public you should ask yourself 3 questions AND seriously consider what the answers might be.



    If the situation dictates do I have the mindset to use lethal force?

    Do I have the ability to defend myself or someone else with lethal force? ( Hit what I’m aiming at under pressure)


    AND, I think the most important question. Am I somewhat confident that I know WHEN I am justified in using lethal force according to State law?


    BBIs will tell you that there are no hard fast answers for any of the questions but my point is that you should consider all three because without training from competent trainers you probably won't find the answers on your own or on You Tube.

    I doubt most people that carry have a good answer for any of the questions. If you don’t have some idea of what the answers might be wouldn’t it be prudent to at least ponder the questions or leave your pistol at home?




    [/URLhttp://s765.photobucket.com/user/mp45c/media/realoperator_zpsb7bsllde.jpg.html
     

    wtburnette

    WT(aF)
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    44   0   0
    Nov 11, 2013
    26,859
    113
    SW side of Indy
    Too many gun owners have the wrong attitude. Too many view the gun as a "magical talisman" that will protect them as long as they have it. There are too many people who don't think about how they carry and if the gun is secure and accessible. When I put my gun on my hip, I draw several times to make sure I can get to the gun quickly with what I'm wearing, whether it's brushing away a shirt or jacket, or lifting a T-shirt or sweatshirt out of the way in order to access the gun. I've taken some training and plan to take more. I go to the range 2 or more times a month to ensure that I have at least a basic familiarity with my gun and how it operates. I'm not sure how to get those who don't understand the basics to get the knowledge they need. I don't want to see it mandated, because that could lead to expensive and/or constrained classes that lead to some people not being able to carry. You're right that it's a problem and that it is very frustrating, but I see it as a price of freedom. People are free to be idiots as gun owners, the same as anyone else in our country. Personally, I believe we need to get back to teaching gun safety classes in schools and develop some type of program that would have children growing up familiar with guns as well as knowledgeable about guns and their use. Not sure of any other way to combat the ignorance... :dunno:
     

    NHT3

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    52   0   0
    Too many gun owners have the wrong attitude. Too many view the gun as a "magical talisman" that will protect them as long as they have it. There are too many people who don't think about how they carry and if the gun is secure and accessible. When I put my gun on my hip, I draw several times to make sure I can get to the gun quickly with what I'm wearing, whether it's brushing away a shirt or jacket, or lifting a T-shirt or sweatshirt out of the way in order to access the gun. I've taken some training and plan to take more. I go to the range 2 or more times a month to ensure that I have at least a basic familiarity with my gun and how it operates. I'm not sure how to get those who don't understand the basics to get the knowledge they need. I don't want to see it mandated, because that could lead to expensive and/or constrained classes that lead to some people not being able to carry. You're right that it's a problem and that it is very frustrating, but I see it as a price of freedom. People are free to be idiots as gun owners, the same as anyone else in our country. Personally, I believe we need to get back to teaching gun safety classes in schools and develop some type of program that would have children growing up familiar with guns as well as knowledgeable about guns and their use. Not sure of any other way to combat the ignorance... :dunno:
    We both know you are in the 5% Tom. You get it but like me you have no idea how to get the Talisman people on board. I don't want to see it mandated only because I know the committee put in charge of the mandate will be politicians that don't have a clue about what they are mandating. I'm not sure there is an answer simply because, as you put it "people are free to be idiots".
    This a troubling trend that has been building for at least 20 years and combating ignorance is above my pay grade. Free of responsibility and accountability make for a dangerous world but I suppose that's where we're at.

    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    “Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]
     

    CraigAPS

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jun 26, 2016
    900
    18
    Muncie
    1. If the situation dictates do I have the mindset to use lethal force?

    2. Do I have the ability to defend myself or someone else with lethal force? ( Hit what I’m aiming at under pressure)


    3. AND, I think the most important question. Am I somewhat confident that I know WHEN I am justified in using lethal force according to State law?

    1. This is something that anyone who has made the decision to defend their own life and the lives of those they love should have considered before getting a firearm or training in any other self-defense skills (martial arts or similar system of armed/unarmed fighting). If one hasn't even thought of this, then that's definitely an issue. I'm not sure how training impacts this other than being told that it's something that has to be pondered. A training class can't make your mind up for you about taking the life of another human being, even while saving other lives. That is a very personal decision based on moral and ethical beliefs.

    2. There's no way to know this until it happens. Someone can never train or practice and hit what they aim at. Likewise, you can go to range daily, always hit the center mass of an IPSC or similar man-sized paper target, then freeze up or shoot wide when the moment arrives. When the adrenaline dumps occurs, there's no way to know how it will affect you. Due to muscle memory and reaction time, could training/practice help with this? Yes, but it doesn't guarantee hitting what you aim at under pressure.

    3. That answer can actually be found on the Internet or YouTube. It does take effort to learn the laws of the state you're in, but they can be readily found on one's own.

    Now, I'm not advocating against either training or regular practice. I feel they are both huge parts of carrying a firearm for me. I'm just saying that, IMHO, your questions don't necessarily rely on either.
     

    wtburnette

    WT(aF)
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    44   0   0
    Nov 11, 2013
    26,859
    113
    SW side of Indy
    We both know you are in the 5% Tom. You get it but like me you have no idea how to get the Talisman people on board. I don't want to see it mandated only because I know the committee put in charge of the mandate will be politicians that don't have a clue about what they are mandating. I'm not sure there is an answer simply because, as you put it "people are free to be idiots".
    This a troubling trend that has been building for at least 20 years and combating ignorance is above my pay grade. Free of responsibility and accountability make for a dangerous world but I suppose that's where we're at.

    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    “Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

    I appreciate you saying that sir, but I think I have a lot more training to do before I agree.

    The worst, for me, is seeing people carrying without thinking things through. Floppy nylon holsters, using belts that aren't stiff enough, in some cases not even using holsters at all, or using them incorrectly like you demonstrated in the picture above. I don't know, it's very frustrating and I'm at a loss as to how to address the problem. Classes in school will help for that to be a thing of the past, but I'm unsure as to how to address it with people who currently carry guns in an unsafe manner.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

    Super Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 22, 2011
    50,582
    113
    Mitchell
    Knowing that we don't know what we don't know is a problem with many areas of endeavor. Often times, it seems, we assume the people closest to us (the resident expert) knows what they're talking about on a topic and we're too ignorant to know they're steering us wrong. I don't know how to fix it either.
     

    Alpo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Sep 23, 2014
    13,877
    113
    Indy Metro Area
    So....do I get this correctly? We now have a pro gun nanny?

    Where in the second amendment does it say that Joe SixPack has to win a local turkey shoot to carry?

    The only thing worse than someone wanting to take my gun away, is someone who thinks they know better than me about when and if I should carry.
     

    wtburnette

    WT(aF)
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    44   0   0
    Nov 11, 2013
    26,859
    113
    SW side of Indy
    So....do I get this correctly? We now have a pro gun nanny?

    Where in the second amendment does it say that Joe SixPack has to win a local turkey shoot to carry?

    The only thing worse than someone wanting to take my gun away, is someone who thinks they know better than me about when and if I should carry.

    I think you're taking it the wrong way. No one is saying we should limit who carries. Instead, we're asking how can we make sure those who do carry do so responsibly? I want to see everyone carry, but I would also feel those who do should do so in a safe manner. Not being a "nanny" about it, just saying that if you're carrying in an unsafe manner that you might want to take a step back and think things through before you drop your gun in the middle of Target or shoot yourself in the crotch or something. Just because you're free to do something doesn't mean it's okay for you to do so in an unsafe manner.
     

    Alpo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Sep 23, 2014
    13,877
    113
    Indy Metro Area
    Hey....why not go for the whole banana? Requirements for raising the correct number of kids in the correct way. The one and only church to belong to. The proper reading list.

    Is dancing OK?
     

    Alpo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Sep 23, 2014
    13,877
    113
    Indy Metro Area
    I think you're taking it the wrong way. No one is saying we should limit who carries. Instead, we're asking how can we make sure those who do carry do so responsibly? I want to see everyone carry, but I would also feel those who do should do so in a safe manner. Not being a "nanny" about it, just saying that if you're carrying in an unsafe manner that you might want to take a step back and think things through before you drop your gun in the middle of Target or shoot yourself in the crotch or something. Just because you're free to do something doesn't mean it's okay for you to do so in an unsafe manner.

    Yes, that is EXACTLY what it means. A free society allows for morons to do dumb things. It does not free them from the consequences of their actions, but it prevents you from getting up on your high horse and dictating what is right and proper.
     
    Last edited:

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    2. There's no way to know this until it happens. Someone can never train or practice and hit what they aim at..

    They could get lucky, you mean. You can get a very good idea of how you'll behave in an adrenaline dump by engaging in realistic Simunition training with pain feedback (ie, it hurts when you do it wrong). My real shooting was very much like a scenario shooting I'd previously done, so much so the similarity actually came to mind during the event, and I reacted the same. Of course there are no guarantees in life. You could have a squib load and no matter how good you are your gun is out of commission. It's foolish to not train and practice based on "there's no guarantee", though. I want the odds tilted as heavily in my favor as possible.

    On a side note, I had a victim recently go 0 for 2 shooting at his robber at very close distances. The robber decided to forfeit the field, he missed fast enough to win. It happens. I'd not want to rely on it, but it happens. Might as well carry a blank gun if you're relying on loud noises to run the bad guy off.
     

    Expat

    Pdub
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    23   0   0
    Feb 27, 2010
    108,735
    113
    Michiana
    They could get lucky, you mean. You can get a very good idea of how you'll behave in an adrenaline dump by engaging in realistic Simunition training with pain feedback (ie, it hurts when you do it wrong). My real shooting was very much like a scenario shooting I'd previously done, so much so the similarity actually came to mind during the event, and I reacted the same. Of course there are no guarantees in life. You could have a squib load and no matter how good you are your gun is out of commission. It's foolish to not train and practice based on "there's no guarantee", though. I want the odds tilted as heavily in my favor as possible.

    On a side note, I had a victim recently go 0 for 2 shooting at his robber at very close distances. The robber decided to forfeit the field, he missed fast enough to win. It happens. I'd not want to rely on it, but it happens. Might as well carry a blank gun if you're relying on loud noises to run the bad guy off.
    In reading his full reply and the post he was replying to, I think his point was, no one knows if they can actually pull the trigger and take that life when decision time comes.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    Yes, that is EXACTLY what it means. A free society allows for morons to do dumb things. It does not free them from their consequences of the actions, but it prevents you from getting up on your high horse and dictating what is right and proper.

    So you're on your high horse about someone being on a high horse? How tall can you stack those things, anyway?

    There are right ways and wrong ways to do things. Discussing them is how people learn. If someone wants to do things the wrong way despite having access to information, that's on them. A large portion do it out of ignorance, though. I'll keep discussing real world outcomes and best practices learned from them.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    In reading his full reply and the post he was replying to, I think his point was, no one knows if they can actually pull the trigger and take that life when decision time comes.

    Likewise, you can go to range daily, always hit the center mass of an IPSC or similar man-sized paper target, then freeze up or shoot wide when the moment arrives. When the adrenaline dumps occurs, there's no way to know how it will affect you

    As you like, but a shot going wide doesn't sound like "can you take a life". Although that's also a question you need to decide now, not when it's actually decision time. Forethought, mental simulation, and pre-planned actions make it pretty likely you can do what you plan to do.
     

    Alpo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Sep 23, 2014
    13,877
    113
    Indy Metro Area
    So you're on your high horse about someone being on a high horse? How tall can you stack those things, anyway?

    There are right ways and wrong ways to do things. Discussing them is how people learn. If someone wants to do things the wrong way despite having access to information, that's on them. A large portion do it out of ignorance, though. I'll keep discussing real world outcomes and best practices learned from them.

    I'm all for training and maintenance. Based on my reading of most of the members who reply to these types of threads, when you start requiring mandatory training in order to recognize a right under the second amendment, you've crossed a bridge too far.

    So, my horse? What gives you the right to tell me what I can carry, whether my training is adequate, whether my holster meets your rigorous standards, etc etc etc?
     
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Aug 4, 2017
    2,133
    113
    Fishers
    Personally, I don't want everyone trained to be proficient with a firearm. If I'm pulling my gun, there's a 90% chance it's because someone else has a gun and I'd like for the other guy to not be trained on how to use it.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    I'm all for training and maintenance. Based on my reading of most of the members who reply to these types of threads, when you start requiring mandatory training in order to recognize a right under the second amendment, you've crossed a bridge too far.

    So, my horse? What gives you the right to tell me what I can carry, whether my training is adequate, whether my holster meets your rigorous standards, etc etc etc?

    I don't want to see it mandated, because that could lead to expensive and/or constrained classes that lead to some people not being able to carry. You're right that it's a problem and that it is very frustrating, but I see it as a price of freedom.

    I don't want to see it mandated only because I know the committee put in charge of the mandate will be politicians that don't have a clue about what they are mandating. I'm not sure there is an answer simply because, as you put it "people are free to be idiots".

    So help me understand your beef with WTBurnette or the thread, because I'm not seeing anyone calling for a mandate...quite the opposite.

    As for me, if you want to carry your .25 Beretta in a Serpa, go for it. I'm not going to pretend it's a good idea because not validating your choices hurts your feels. I'll continue to lay out facts as to why it's not a best practice, if you ignore that, hopefully it still works out for you despite handicapping yourself.
     
    Top Bottom