More Wisdom from Clint Smith

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  • rhino

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    We haven't had a Clint Smith topic in a while.

    Here is a video from 2017 in which he discusses reloading after your gun is empty, his philosophy on shooting until you're empty, and his opinion on using the forward assist.

    [video=youtube;4IzMHqkGc38]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IzMHqkGc38[/video]
     

    Ark

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    Hmmm. I'm 50/50 on this one.

    I'm not sure what he's referencing as far as being penalized for shooting a weapon dry. I can't really think of anyone else I've heard from who seriously argues that proactive reloads are never a good idea. Maybe I'm misunderstanding his point. I certainly agree that you should train to empty and do emergency reloads, as it's very important to be able to recognize when a rifle runs empty.

    In 100% agreement on the forward assist thing, though. Neither of my rifles have them and I have never noticed the absence. If your rifle fails to go into battery because of a case head separation or a stuck case, beating on the forward assist is not going to fix that problem. I know I could just ignore it, but IMO my rifle should not have an "induce malfunction" button.
     

    cosermann

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    Thought this was kind of interesting on the forward assist:

    Stoner himself stated that, after many types of testing programs, “I never saw an instance where it would have done any good … under sand and mud and every type of firing conditions in the world.” He also stated, “… when you get a cartridge that won’t seat in a rifle and you deliberately drive it in (to the chamber), usually you are buying yourself more trouble.” [1]

    The army may have required it for psychological, rather than practical reasons. "They stated that, 'The frequency or infrequency of the type of malfunction correctable by a manual bolt closure capability is immaterial. The knowledge among troops that such as malfunction is merely possible would lower confidence in a weapon lacking (such) a device.'”

    On reloads, the current data we have on civilian self-defense incidents (with handguns) seems to indicate that the need to reload is a low probability event for which we're probably over-training. If I need to empty an AR mag, I'd think that would be an even lower probability event.

    [1] - https://gundigest.com/rifles/ars-rifles/ar-basics-futile-forward-assist
     

    rhino

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    Thought this was kind of interesting on the forward assist:

    Stoner himself stated that, after many types of testing programs, “I never saw an instance where it would have done any good … under sand and mud and every type of firing conditions in the world.” He also stated, “… when you get a cartridge that won’t seat in a rifle and you deliberately drive it in (to the chamber), usually you are buying yourself more trouble.” [1]

    The army may have required it for psychological, rather than practical reasons. "They stated that, 'The frequency or infrequency of the type of malfunction correctable by a manual bolt closure capability is immaterial. The knowledge among troops that such as malfunction is merely possible would lower confidence in a weapon lacking (such) a device.'”

    On reloads, the current data we have on civilian self-defense incidents (with handguns) seems to indicate that the need to reload is a low probability event for which we're probably over-training. If I need to empty an AR mag, I'd think it was an even lower probability event.

    [1] - https://gundigest.com/rifles/ars-rifles/ar-basics-futile-forward-assist

    Hey! What the heck to ignorant savages like Eugene Stoner and Clint Smith know about the AR, anyway? I'm stickin' with SPORTS!
     

    rhino

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    Clint reviews and demonstrates how to use the Mossberg 590 Shockwave non-shotgun:

    [video=youtube;fM_sqSTg2v8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM_sqSTg2v8[/video]

    At 2:35 - ". . . it'd be an awesome car gun."

    Remember: this is not only not a shotgun legally, it's not really a shotgun in practice either. It's not intended to serve in the role of a shotgun (with a shoulder stock). Technique is different!
     

    GIJEW

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    Hmmm. I'm 50/50 on this one.

    I'm not sure what he's referencing as far as being penalized for shooting a weapon dry. I can't really think of anyone else I've heard from who seriously argues that proactive reloads are never a good idea. Maybe I'm misunderstanding his point. I certainly agree that you should train to empty and do emergency reloads, as it's very important to be able to recognize when a rifle runs empty.

    In 100% agreement on the forward assist thing, though. Neither of my rifles have them and I have never noticed the absence. If your rifle fails to go into battery because of a case head separation or a stuck case, beating on the forward assist is not going to fix that problem. I know I could just ignore it, but IMO my rifle should not have an "induce malfunction" button.
    About shooting the rifle empty, I'd guess that he's saying "just take care of business and shoot instead of trying to count your rounds". Proactive reloads are for breaks in the action or preparation made prior to leaving cover.
    I was issued a Galil but the training I had on the M16 NEVER involved the forward assist for anything. For what my opinion is worth, I do think having the charging handle separate from the bolt is a weak link in a good design. Once in training, a member of the platoon had a case-head separation. The Lt. put the flashhider on a rock and used the Galil's charging handle to stomp a cartridge into the chamber and then turned the project around and did the same thing with the stock on the ground to pull out the torn case. Surely not a gun-smith approved method, but that field expedient doesn't exist with an M16.
     

    Brad69

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    Clint Smith is Kool.
    I received training from many men of his era most of them imparted wisdom in the same fashion as Clint often with a range paddle upside your helmet.

    The original M-16 did not have the forward assist the M-16A1 added the forward assist based on AAR accounts from south East Asia.
    Military firearms are abused far and above their civilian versions often the locking lugs will foul with dirt, unspent powder, carbon ect.
    this causes the bolt not to lock. Tapping the forward assist is much easier in a panic situation than using the scallops on the bolt carrier.
    This type of malfunctions usually only happen if you have fired a lot rounds quickly as with most AR malfunctions that are not magazine related.
    Forcing anything into the chamber of course is never a good idea.

    I think what Clint is getting at when addressing reloading is finish the fight before worrying about anything else.
    If you watch a Platoon attacking or defending a sustained volume of accurate fire is essential. You will hear the guns M240/M60 “talking” to each other so they keep up a rate of sustained fire. You will also see the same training at the team level you don’t want a sudden fury of fire and the a pause while everyone reloads. During a tactical pause you will hear team leaders screaming for LACE reports and physically checking their guys for wounds. This is when weapons are “Tactically” reloaded. The individual reloads when they have a chance if its when you run dry while engaging that’s what you have to do. If it’s during a pause while under cover that a bonus you always want to be topped off before leaving cover if possible.

    IMO
    Some instructors have placed a unrealistic standard on “Tactical” reloads. I have a hard time comprehending any person having the
    calmness to know how many rounds they have in a weapon during or after an engagement. You have so many different things rattling around in your head.
    Why can’t I hear?
    Why is everything gray looking?
    What just happened?
    so on and so forth!
    Drill on Emergency reloads is essential “Tactical” reloads are gravy.
     

    Coach

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    I think the best place for a tactical reload is when you are standing in mud, floodwaters and snow, or when behind cover. Perhaps in the dark after the shooting has stopped and you are waiting for the home invader in the door way to bleed out and you have the time to top off and you don't want to advertise that the gun has only one round in for a few seconds.

    I have heard at least one instructor in person talk highly of the proactive reload and I trust his judgement and experience. I am not a fan of always and never. It make you predictable for one thing. Plus the circumstances change.
     

    Ark

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    Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting children or other passengers...
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    I'm not sure what he's referencing as far as being penalized for shooting a weapon dry.

    And thus Old Man Freeman was summoned to relate The Histories of Gunsite.

    Back in the day when Clint was a student and then ramrod at Gunsite (after his Allen County stint), anyone caught with a slide locked back on a handgun owed the Colonel a case of beer.

    The deck on the sconce at Orange Gunsite groaned under the weight sometimes and The Countess would give Jeff crap about where to store it.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding his point. I certainly agree that you should train to empty and do emergency reloads, as it's very important to be able to recognize when a rifle runs empty.

    In the closing days of TR-Tejas I took one of the last handgun classes and was "encouraging" Clint to write books. Clint told me that if he had to do it all over again he would eschew the "tactical reload" as it added nothing to what his mission was.

    In 100% agreement on the forward assist thing, though. Neither of my rifles have them and I have never noticed the absence. If your rifle fails to go into battery because of a case head separation or a stuck case, beating on the forward assist is not going to fix that problem. I know I could just ignore it, but IMO my rifle should not have an "induce malfunction" button.

    My AR-15s do not have the Exploder . . . well, I still have one of the 6920s that I traded the FNC for so the LE/MIL Colt has the Exploder, but it is in deep reserve now.

    Stoner fought the Exploder but Big Army buys guns by the warehouse. The Exploder was a sure thing once the monkeys got in their heads that another geegaw to poke would solve their training issues.

    Bah, humans, whatchagonna do?
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    The army may have required it for psychological, rather than practical reasons. "They stated that, 'The frequency or infrequency of the type of malfunction correctable by a manual bolt closure capability is immaterial. The knowledge among troops that such as malfunction is merely possible would lower confidence in a weapon lacking (such) a device.'”

    Correct. The Exploder is biological/evolutionary, a fidget spinner. The platform already had a forward assist. Big Army wanted the second one and the Golden Rule says those with the gold make the rules.
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    I was issued a Galil but the training I had on the M16 NEVER involved the forward assist for anything.

    My friend's daughter completed IDF basic in 2017 (she was Balto Corps, dog girl). They used General Motors M16s from the late '60s.

    "But, but, the M16 isn't rugged enough to last".:D

    [My friend's daughter was multiple graduate of Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and Shootrite [the family has resources], before leaving for Zahal, she took a 3 day private tutorial at Shootrite.

    During range phase, the Captain ("you can call me Ron") called her aside. She was in with French and Russian girls who had never touched a firearm before. Ron asked her how she knew to shoot so well, in American-accented Hebrew she began to explain, he cut her off with "ah American", and set her right back to the platoon]
     
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    rhino

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    My friend's daughter completed IDF basic in 2017 (she was Balto Corps, dog girl). They used General Motors M16s from the late '60s.

    "But, but, the M16 isn't rugged enough to last".:D

    [My friend's daughter was multiple graduate of Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and Shootrite [the family has resources], before leaving for Zahal, she took a 3 day private tutorial at Shootrite.

    During range phase, the Captain ("you can call me Ron") called her aside. She was in with French and Russian girls who had never touched a firearm before. Ron asked her how she knew to shoot so well, in American-accented Hebrew she began to explain, he cut her off with "ah American", and set her right back to the platoon]

    Is that the friend I know too?
     
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