Weapon Retention 1 with Infinity Solutions and Choke-U

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  • turnandshoot4

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    I honestly hope to bridge the gap between people who take shooting courses and people who like to grapple.

    Most of the gun grappling classes had a good bit of competitive nature to them which I think turns people away. No combat sport I've ever done expects someone to deliver that day and it might be unfair to push students to do so.

    Thoughts?
     

    Jackson

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    I honestly hope to bridge the gap between people who take shooting courses and people who like to grapple.

    Most of the gun grappling classes had a good bit of competitive nature to them which I think turns people away. No combat sport I've ever done expects someone to deliver that day and it might be unfair to push students to do so.

    Thoughts?

    I have some thoughts. I'll try to come back later when I have more time. Basically it comes down to your training objectives and your audience.
     

    actaeon277

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    I'm interested, but I have to think about it.
    I have a bad back, and 4 hours of that may be too much for me.
    Also I work that day, and leaving from Valpo, I would have to leave class a little early.
     

    actaeon277

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    :(


    Summer is when everyone takes vacations.
    I should know that.

    So I'll be working a button load that week, good chance I'll be on a double shift.
     

    cedartop

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    I'm waiting for Mike to agree to go be my training partner.

    I am considering it, though I had already committed to being at Randy's CRG class that weekend. Something else that slips my mind is also going on that weekend. One thing is for sure, there is no shortage of training opportunities. That is made even harder now with hitting as many matches as I can.
     

    Jackson

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    I am considering it, though I had already committed to being at Randy's CRG class that weekend. Something else that slips my mind is also going on that weekend. One thing is for sure, there is no shortage of training opportunities. That is made even harder now with hitting as many matches as I can.

    Well, you can't cheat on Randy. I'm sure there will be someone else at the class I can partner with.
     

    Jackson

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    I honestly hope to bridge the gap between people who take shooting courses and people who like to grapple. <br>
    <br>
    Most of the gun grappling classes had a good bit of competitive nature to them which I think turns people away. No combat sport I've ever done expects someone to deliver that day and it might be unfair to push students to do so. <br>
    <br>
    Thoughts?

    So, the basic question is: What is the value of including a competitive element in a class? I think it depends on your goals and the type of students you're trying to attract. Like we we're talking about in the current Am I in Danger thread, the overwhelming majority of people out there have never really tested their ability to perform in a fight. They have no idea what they can (and can't) do. For that reason, I think testing is really important. I think people should have a realistic idea of their capabilities. I think it's possible for a class to give students a false sense of what is possible if they are only shown techniques but have no idea what a live fight feels like. I also think it's hard to do both in a seminar type class. For most students with no significant experience, who aren't athletes or particularly physically adept, it would be very difficult to learn a technique on day one and apply it under pressure in a fully non-consensual and competitive match. For most people it takes a lot of practice, drilling, and working up to it.

    I guess I'm curious what other people think about that... Can a 1, 2, or 3 day class be both a place to learn technique well enough to actually use it, and a place to test the same techniques in a live situation? I think that probably depends a lot on the background of the students.

    I've taken a few different seminar format classes that focus on, or presented elements of, a grappling or contact problem involving the gun. There were three basic models as far as testing went.

    1. Techniques were shown and practiced with no resistance, but no significant testing was included. These were either short adjuncts to other classes, or short seminars encountered at places like the Rangemaster Tactical Conference. Techniques and concepts were shown for academic and awareness purposes. It was clear you weren't doing enough practice to master anything.

    2. Techniques were shown and practiced, testing was done with an armored instructor providing a consistent experience regardless of the student (FIST suit or Bullet Suit guy). The ones that come immediately to mind are FAST Defense, TDI's Extreme Close Quarters<, and the combatives classes at Mindset Lab. In these, either there is no significant competition for the student and they are just practicing on a live person, or the student is allowed to win in order to reinforce use of the right technique. The padded suit guy doesn't provide competitive resistance. There is some merit to this approach in that it allows the actual techniques shown to be practiced and winning provides a sense of empowerment to the student. Throwing a student in to the fire on day 2 might discourage them, likely give them little opportunity to use the actual techniques practiced, and not result in great retention of the material. On the other hand, they leave without knowing how they will fare in any real adversity and what to do when the technique(s) they've been shown don't work on the first go.

    3. Techniques were shown and practiced, testing was done student vs student. The prime example here is Shivworks ECQC ECQC involves significantly more testing than other classes I've attended. Basic, fundamental avoidance and fundamental grappling skills are shown during the skills portion of the class. Testing is intermixed. From what I recall seeing, the students with previous training were able to implement things they'd practiced in the past, but most of the students were unable to implement the majority of the more technical grappling skills after just one day of training when the resistance was real. This is not a fault of the instruction, but there just wasn't enough time to learn to implement it. I did see students implement some things they were taught though. So it was certainly not a wasted exercise. The most value part, however, was the testing element.

    I guess I think skills training is only worthwhile if the student will take it home and drill it enough to actually implement it under stress. Most will not. There is value in the testing regardless of what the student does after the class. They leave with an understanding of where they stand and what they can or can't do. For many, it helps them realize that consistent training is the best way to assure they can implement things effectively and it changes their mindset. There are, of course, some students who simply will not go to an ECQC type class because of the intensity, the possibility of failure, or the possibility of injury.
     
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    jsharmon7

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    To Jackson’s excellent post:

    I always questioned whether one could be shown some techniques and be able to implement them, but BJJ confirmed to me that it’s just about impossible. A person needs long-term practice and repetitions in order to “put that tool in the box.” I’ve seen numerous times first-hand that doing some defensive tactics work for a day, or a week, doesn’t mean you can actually pull it off against a resistant opponent. I just don’t believe one can be shown something during a couple days of training that will stick with them and be useful in the long-term. I think the best value one can get from these classes is to already be doing this type of retention/grappling training and then try to take away some new ideas from the class. There is a ton of value in these classes, as long as it’s not one and done.
     

    turnandshoot4

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    Jackson,

    Excellent, well thought out post!

    I have seen 1, 2, and 3 in classes. As an instructor I am interested in how to be MOST effective for anyone signing up.

    1. These are fantastic to introduce someone to a concept or gain interest in a general area of study. This is the aim of my class. This introduces (mostly local) people to the concepts of going hands on with a gun on their person and jiu jitsu in general. The constant mindset of "I'll just shoot them" is perpetuated by people's inability to talk their way out of situations and/or their inability to fight. If we could just get a few of those people on the mats they might start spreading better information.

    3. All of the work I've done with Craig, Cecil, Paul, and Larry included competitive non-consensual work at the end and it is humbling. In the last hour of the day after 16 hours of coursework fighting against 2 or more opponents is always difficult. I generally see people either be driven by it and begin their mixed martial arts journey or shoulder shrug and say that's what they expected. This is where I'm torn. Do we drive away John Q. gun owner by pushing too hard, too early, too often?

    jsharmon7,

    I totally agree that seeing it once won't guarantee someone can use it in a fight. That being said jiu jitsu class is a pretty poor measure if the technique will work in a fight. Everyone learned the same move that night. Everyone is watching for it. The true test is the next night when guy on his first night of jiu jitsu goes up against guy on his second night of jiu jitsu. My hopes are to at least turn gun owners into 1 day jiu jitsu people vs a world of 0 day jiu jitsu people.

    Dirtbags fight often. Jail, in gangs, against other gangs, in their relationships, on the sides of roads. Most regular people don't. Hopefully this can give the good guys a leg up.

    My hierarchy of goals:
    1. For anyone to take away anything that will lead to positive outcomes. (Understanding the draw process and how it pertains to in fight weapons access, retaining the pistol, better holster choices, physical fitness, starting any sort of martial arts training, etc. etc.)
    2. Raise awareness in the gun world that they have more tools at their disposal than the firearm.
    3. Introduce people to combatives who would not normally try them.
    4. Foster a positive learning environment that will promote the marrying of firearms training and mixed martial arts, for anyone, not just the 225lb 7% body fat 25 year old purple belt.
     

    jsharmon7

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    TaS,

    I agree with you. I was using BJJ as an example that seeing something one day isn’t going to make it a useful tool unless you keep working at it. Hopefully these types of classes open some eyes and encourage people to expand their training. Hopefully people will take such a class and say “oh wow, I need to fill this gap.” I certainly need to keep working at it! I would love to go to this class but I’m on call that weekend and can’t get away.
     

    Tryin'

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    To Jackson’s excellent post:

    (Snip) I’ve seen numerous times first-hand that doing some defensive tactics work for a day, or a week, doesn’t mean you can actually pull it off against a resistant opponent. I just don’t believe one can be shown something during a couple days of training that will stick with them and be useful in the long-term.

    Good post. And yet, that is exactly what the public expects from attendees of a certain Plainfield area institution. Crazy.
     

    turnandshoot4

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    This is absolutely true! And too many Officers believe it as well. Or that yearly mandated refresher will help.

    I work with a local department and we train every month. I built a year for them and in the very cold winter months we roll.

    We had a few from another department come out and it was great to see my regulars able to do so well against the "yearly" guys. They've committed their time and it really showed when we put a couple of new officers in there.
     
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