Modern Samurai Project Black Belt Standards

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  • cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    So many here know I like following different trainers standards and COF. Some are relatively easy, some doable, and some extremely difficult. It seems that there are more and more trainers out there giving out coins for passing certain tests or standards. Heck, I heard even Tom Givens is giving out a coin for the Casino drill now. Anyway, during the winter I took a red dot pistol class from Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai Project. I took this class about a month after the Gabe White class. Yes, Gabe has some pretty tough standards too that I wrote about in my review of that class. At the time I took the MSP class we ran some of his drills but he didn't have them codified into these Black Belt standards yet. I will be interested to see who gets patches for these. As I see them, they are pretty tough. From his Instagram,

    Bill Drill from concealment at 7 yards in 2 seconds or less.

    1 shot Alpha from concealment at 7 yards in 1 second or less.

    3&2 drill from concealment at 3 yards. 3 hits to Alpha, 2 to 3X5 card on head 2 seconds or less.

    1 shot from concealment to Alpha at 25 yards in 1.5 second or less.

    As usual there will be a lot of people who say they can meet these standards, but as I have found (as well as others I know, you know who you are) actually performing them on demand in front of a crowd can be another matter entirely.
     

    Jackson

    Master
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    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,334
    63
    West side of Indy
    Those look like tough standards to me. Doing anything precisely from concealment in under a second is pretty tough. Maybe I need a better method of clearing the shirt, but it soaks up a lot of time.

    I think it's faster if you're proficient from appendix. Regardless, these standards are beyond my capabilities right now.
     

    JBishop

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 26, 2012
    84
    8
    New Albany
    Thanks for putting these out. I go from duty belt skills/concealment skills. So it's good to set standards that can be kept separate to focus for training.

    It's also a reminder that I need to build myself a reference binder of standards from agencies and schools.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    So many here know I like following different trainers standards and COF. Some are relatively easy, some doable, and some extremely difficult. It seems that there are more and more trainers out there giving out coins for passing certain tests or standards. Heck, I heard even Tom Givens is giving out a coin for the Casino drill now. Anyway, during the winter I took a red dot pistol class from Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai Project. I took this class about a month after the Gabe White class. Yes, Gabe has some pretty tough standards too that I wrote about in my review of that class. At the time I took the MSP class we ran some of his drills but he didn't have them codified into these Black Belt standards yet. I will be interested to see who gets patches for these. As I see them, they are pretty tough. From his Instagram,

    Bill Drill from concealment at 7 yards in 2 seconds or less.

    1 shot Alpha from concealment at 7 yards in 1 second or less.

    3&2 drill from concealment at 3 yards. 3 hits to Alpha, 2 to 3X5 card on head 2 seconds or less.

    1 shot from concealment to Alpha at 25 yards in 1.5 second or less.

    As usual there will be a lot of people who say they can meet these standards, but as I have found (as well as others I know, you know who you are) actually performing them on demand in front of a crowd can be another matter entirely.

    Those seem like good goals to strive toward, but I know I couldn't come close even with practice. I'd have a tough time making those par times without concealment even if I spent a few weeks practicing them. I've never come close to breaking 2 seconds in a Bill Drill even when I used to practice on a semi-regular basis (which was a long, long, time ago).

    You should ask him for yellow belt standards. Or maybe white belt with a RIT-dye yellow tip standards. That would be more within my ability.
     

    riverman67

    Master
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    2   0   0
    Jan 16, 2009
    4,105
    48
    Morgan County
    I'm pretty sure that I can not draw and fire an alpha in less than one second on demand.
    I've tried, I can get close with focused practice, but I don't think I can react to the buzzer quick enough to do it.
    I know I can't do it from concealment
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
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    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    I'm pretty sure that I can not draw and fire an alpha in less than one second on demand.
    I've tried, I can get close with focused practice, but I don't think I can react to the buzzer quick enough to do it.
    I know I can't do it from concealment

    My best draws from an IWB holster and no concealment to hit an A using sights were in the low 1.20s. It would take me some practice to match that. From concealment? Probably not going to happen.

    If I were to come close to any of those times, I've had to use a regular belt holster, maybe with a little offset and lowered. Still wouldn't make it, though, esp. from concealment.

    Based on my observations, I think chezuki could come close to or beat some of those numbers from concealment now, if not meet some of them. He could could definitely do it with some specific practice.
     

    nakinate

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    May 1, 2013
    13,425
    113
    Noblesville
    I’d fail every one of these. My draw to alpha at 7 yards is the one closest to my grasp. I may be able to get under 1 second from concealment in the next 6 months or so. I can do it in dry fire, but not live fire yet. The rest of these standards will take a lot more time and effort from me to accomplish. But it’s fun to try.
     

    Vigilant

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Jul 12, 2008
    11,659
    83
    Plainfield
    I can clear a Bill Drill in 2, after 10 or so attempts, but that takes up most of my range time. To clear that course, I’d need a sponsor. So, if anyone would donate to my ammo fund, I’ll set up the GoPro, and send up the drone, and I will clear that course. It may take a few months, and a lot of sponsored ammo, but you sponsees will be sound in the knowledge that you helped it happen. And proved it could be done! Just so you know, I now shoot 124gr Speer Gold Dot, and my practice ammo is any 124gr NATO spec ball that can be had. PM me for drop ship instructions, i’ll provide my own range and targets, along with spectator privileges to any and all sponsors. Thank you for your support.
     

    Randy Harris

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 22, 2012
    248
    28
    Yes those are very tough.....but then again.... Black Belts are not supposed to be participation trophies.....
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Those standards are very tough.

    Yes they are. Especially when you consider it has to be done clean and consistently. Some of those may be doable running on all out speed mode, but as you know that will be hit and miss. Obviously these are not set up for the casual shooter. You have to be a high level gamer or serious enthusiast. As we know, you don't have to be anywhere near this good to use a gun to defend yourself, but if you are going to do something do it right.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    Yes those are very tough.....but then again.... Black Belts are not supposed to be participation trophies.....

    Yes they are. Especially when you consider it has to be done clean and consistently. Some of those may be doable running on all out speed mode, but as you know that will be hit and miss. Obviously these are not set up for the casual shooter. You have to be a high level gamer or serious enthusiast. As we know, you don't have to be anywhere near this good to use a gun to defend yourself, but if you are going to do something do it right.

    Some black belts are easier to attain than others! Some commercial tae kwon do schools essentially sell them whereas it's apparently a long, hard road to earn one in Brazillian jujitsu.

    A long time ago, someone suggest that B Class was equivalent to a black belt in USPSA, which makes sense because that's usually the point where people really start to learn the game and develop their fundamentals to an exceptional level. However, I know a lot of B class shooters who could not meet the Modern Samurai Project standards.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Some black belts are easier to attain than others! Some commercial tae kwon do schools essentially sell them whereas it's apparently a long, hard road to earn one in Brazillian jujitsu.

    A long time ago, someone suggest that B Class was equivalent to a black belt in USPSA, which makes sense because that's usually the point where people really start to learn the game and develop their fundamentals to an exceptional level. However, I know a lot of B class shooters who could not meet the Modern Samurai Project standards.

    As a B class shooter and someone who has been around a bit, (believe it or not I have been called a training whore by some), I would venture to say most B class shooters couldn't pass these at least without dedicated focused practice to just those drills. I would put these at Master class level.
     

    Randy Harris

    Marksman
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    0   0   0
    Oct 22, 2012
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    I would put these at Master class level.

    As a 5 gun IDPA Master , the one time holder of the record on the Casino Drill (13.75) and as someone who shot a 115 (Advanced) at the Rogers Shooting School I would wholeheartedly agree. Those are definitely Master level skills.
     
    Last edited:

    rhino

    Grandmaster
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    Mar 18, 2008
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    Indiana
    As a 5 gun IDPA Master , the one time holder of the record on the Casino Drill (13.75) and as someone who shot a 115 (Advanced) at the Rogers Shooting School I would wholeheartedly agree. Those are definitely Master level skills.

    Ah! So we're agreed! Way past "black belt" level.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
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    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
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    Is there some arms race in the training industry to have the toughest standards for whatever coin/certificate/geegaw you get? Serious question, are these primarily a marketing ploy where the standards are arbitrary (or what the instructor feels they can routinely demonstrate) or is there some meaning, some correlation to the "test" that's relevant to a pursuit outside the test?

    Not singling out this particular test, I'm just seeing more and more instructors with their own "the test".
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Is there some arms race in the training industry to have the toughest standards for whatever coin/certificate/geegaw you get? Serious question, are these primarily a marketing ploy where the standards are arbitrary (or what the instructor feels they can routinely demonstrate) or is there some meaning, some correlation to the "test" that's relevant to a pursuit outside the test?

    Not singling out this particular test, I'm just seeing more and more instructors with their own "the test".



    Yes.

    I think it is what it is. Fun and a way to work to improve your skills. Correlation? Probably nothing specific, though better is better. Though I enjoy all of this, I don't put a lot of stock in it as making you the ultimate commando or anything, hence my comment above about not needing to be nearly this good to defend yourself. Overall I think high standards are good.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
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    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
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    Indiana
    Is there some arms race in the training industry to have the toughest standards for whatever coin/certificate/geegaw you get? Serious question, are these primarily a marketing ploy where the standards are arbitrary (or what the instructor feels they can routinely demonstrate) or is there some meaning, some correlation to the "test" that's relevant to a pursuit outside the test?

    Not singling out this particular test, I'm just seeing more and more instructors with their own "the test".

    I had not considered that, but should have. When you have standards that are exactly 1 second or 1.5 seconds for any task, it seems arbitrary. If by some coincidence 100 people at a known skill level completed that task in 0.95 to 1.05 sec it's one thing, but somehow I don't think it happened that way.

    That's one of the strengths of the USPSA classification system. It's based on actual performance of a lot of people and the benchmark is established by those who perform the best (and is subject to change). IDPA classification and other standards with chosen numbers are less . . . objective.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
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    Mar 18, 2008
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    Indiana
    [video=youtube_share;sL2jHYNW_sU]https://youtu.be/sL2jHYNW_sU[/video]

    I don't know, it looks pretty easy when he does it.

    Indeed! That is impressive.

    He is saving a tenth or two by staging his hands ready to clear his garment though. My opinion (which doesn't matter) is that hands should be in a more neutral position such as at sides or a surrender position with wrist above shoulders. My concealed draw times would definitely be better if I started with my support hand ready to hook my shirt.

    Another thing is, I think someone else should operate the timer or the delay should be random. Using a fixed delay allows you to anticipate when the beep is going to happen, whether you realize you're doing it or not.
     
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