Target Focus Shooting

[JCSR]

As a new shooter that never shot a pistol before May 2017, I must say it looked a lot easier than it is! Got my LTCH and took a class at Five Stones and I practiced. Shot a Outlaw Steel match in Owensboro in September 2017 followed by a USPSA match in November. This year I have shot about 6 USPSA matches and the same number of Steel. I quickly found that accuracy was my downfall. Even for an "old guy" speed was not a problem. My vision is such that I can't focus on the front sight and target using the traditional front sight focus method. Basically closing the left eye and aligning the sights while placing the front fiber on the center of the "A" zone. So my question is has anyone been able to change to target focus and gain accuracy? Ok, enough talk. Below is my results. Please discuss.

Front sight focus, 30' left eye closed,draw from holster ,two controlled shots,~1.3-1.4 draw and .25-.30 splits


Target focus, both eyes open looking at center of "A" zone. Same distance,drill and times.

 

[Coach]

Why is a front sight focus not possible?

There are two things that decide if you get hits on target where you want. Trigger control or the lack of it is my prime suspect for targets that look like that at the distances that you describe.

If your vision is a problem perhaps a red dot.

 

[JCSR]

Thanks for the response. I wear multi-focal contacts that allow me to read fine print in my right eye and see the sights clearly. With my left eye (distance lens) closed the sights are sharp but the target is just a brown fuzzy image. Both eyes open with a focus on the center of the target seems to work as well or better. Even at 25yrds I shoot no better with the left eye closed and a sharp sight focus. I agree that trigger control is a major issue and something I constantly work on.

 

[rhino]

Why is a front sight focus not possible?

There are two things that decide if you get hits on target where you want. Trigger control or the lack of it is my prime suspect for targets that look like that at the distances that you describe.

If your vision is a problem perhaps a red dot.

Agreed with the above.

To add . . .

If front sight focus is difficult to vision problems, the solution is not to just change to a focus on the target. The solution is to 1) recognize that the difficulty of the shot determines how much visual information you need from the sights, and 2) ultimately seeing the sights is about aligning the gun, but actually hitting the target with bullets is about pressing the trigger and allowing the gun to discharge without significantly disturbing the alignment of the gun with the targets (i.e. "trigger control").

Moving from there, look to how you can acquire the visual information you need to verify alignment of the gun with the target. One solution is a red dot or even a laser. Less high tech methods include using different visual cues in lieu of a traditional sight picture. For example, that can take the form of using the top of the slide as a sight or using the image of back of the slide superimposed over the target to verify alignment. The latter is what the late, great Jim Cirillo called "silhouette point." Some think that it's point shooting, but it's just a different, less precise method of aimed fire that can be used when you can't resolve the actual sights.

Furthermore, using the slide, the silhouette of the rear of the slide, and other visual cues are things that most shooters develop over time with experience anyway, whether they realize it or not. For less difficult shots, "brown behind fist" and good trigger control will get A-hits all day long, whereas hits at 50 yards may require a more traditional hard focus on the top, rear edge of the front sight.

"See what you need to see" + adequate trigger control = good hit on target

 

[Twangbanger]

1) Which eye is dominant?

2) What happens when you shoot slow fire at these distances?

 

[sniper1]

Eye dominance is a factor in this question.
Trigger control agreed from previous threads.

 

[JCSR]

Rhino, I think the silhouette point is very close to what I'm doing.

1) Which eye is dominant?
right eye, right hand shooter
2) What happens when you shoot slow fire at these distances?
No problem hitting A zone 99%

Trigger control and a consistent grip from the draw are ongoing problems as with most new shooters I suppose

 

[Jackson]

What kind of groups can you shoot at this distance using each method if you remove the time element?

 

[JCSR]

What kind of groups can you shoot at this distance using each method if you remove the time element?

30' slow fire

 

[rhino]

What kind of groups can you shoot at this distance using each method if you remove the time element?

That's a very good question and the responding photo provides significant information.

30' slow fire

View attachment 71988

That tells us a few things!

1. You are capable of making the shots when the time component of stress is removed.
2. When you're "trying to go fast," you may not be waiting for adequate visual information before you press the trigger and/or your trigger control may be deteriorating.

Are you firing shots after the first shot without seeing some kind of visual cue that the gun is aligned with the target again?
Are you allowing the gun to deviate from alignment with the target either just before, during, or just after your trigger press?​

 

[JCSR]

That's a very good question and the responding photo provides significant information.




That tells us a few things!

1. You are capable of making the shots when the time component of stress is removed.
2. When you're "trying to go fast," you may not be waiting for adequate visual information before you press the trigger and/or your trigger control may be deteriorating.

Are you firing shots after the first shot without seeing some kind of visual cue that the gun is aligned with the target again?
Are you allowing the gun to deviate from alignment with the target either just before, during, or just after your trigger press?​

1. It seems closing one eye and aligning he sights works pretty well except at match speed.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.This is a mental problem. During a match my legs will start running before I complete the shot
All these things I"m working on. I have been shooting the modified Stoeger Controlled Pairs drill the last few practice sessions. Are there some other live or dry fire drills that will work on my specific problems?

 

[devildog70]

I've never met anyone who has been in a gunfight that is not a proponent of using the sights. Universally, the folks I know of who push unsighted fire TFT (or whatever the current marketing acronym is), or Quick Kill have never been in a gunfight. If they claim they have, they can never show any kind of documentation of it (as in, claims of having been involved in gunfights CONUS, with ZERO documentation). Hell, some of them don't even carry a gun regularly. That tells me all I need to know.

On the flipside, I know dozens and dozens of folks who HAVE been in gunfights who all say something very close to "things weren't going too well, until I slowed down and found my front sight." Again, a clue.

Finally, Bill Rogers at Rogers Shooting Schools says he has had many point shooting/ TFT/ Quick Kill experts come through the course, and none of them have done well using those techniques.

 

[Coach]

I've never met anyone who has been in a gunfight that is not a proponent of using the sights. Universally, the folks I know of who push unsighted fire TFT (or whatever the current marketing acronym is), or Quick Kill have never been in a gunfight. If they claim they have, they can never show any kind of documentation of it (as in, claims of having been involved in gunfights CONUS, with ZERO documentation). Hell, some of them don't even carry a gun regularly. That tells me all I need to know.

On the flipside, I know dozens and dozens of folks who HAVE been in gunfights who all say something very close to "things weren't going too well, until I slowed down and found my front sight." Again, a clue.

Finally, Bill Rogers at Rogers Shooting Schools says he has had many point shooting/ TFT/ Quick Kill experts come through the course, and none of them have done well using those techniques.

Pearls of wisdom here.

 

[Coach]

1. It seems closing one eye and aligning he sights works pretty well except at match speed.

Do it like that and work on improving the speed. You have a speed focus. Need a front sight focus and the development of your shot calling. The front sight should set the speed through the stage.

 

[Jackson]

30' slow fire
View attachment 71988

[STRIKE]This is using a target focus or a front sight focus? Can we see a representative example of the other?[/STRIKE]

Edit: Disregard. Posted before reading the whole thread.

 

[JCSR]

I've never met anyone who has been in a gunfight that is not a proponent of using the sights. Universally, the folks I know of who push unsighted fire TFT (or whatever the current marketing acronym is), or Quick Kill have never been in a gunfight. If they claim they have, they can never show any kind of documentation of it (as in, claims of having been involved in gunfights CONUS, with ZERO documentation). Hell, some of them don't even carry a gun regularly. That tells me all I need to know.

On the flipside, I know dozens and dozens of folks who HAVE been in gunfights who all say something very close to "things weren't going too well, until I slowed down and found my front sight." Again, a clue.

Finally, Bill Rogers at Rogers Shooting Schools says he has had many point shooting/ TFT/ Quick Kill experts come through the course, and none of them have done well using those techniques.

I agree 100% as well. I do in fact see the sights when target focusing but with both eyes open the sights are somewhat blurry and the target is sharp. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

[Twangbanger]

So, something happens when you go fast, that doesn't happen when you go slow.

That's a pretty typical problem to have, for a beginner...for an intermediate...and for an expert!

You have just identified in a nutshell the entire problem you'll be solving in marksmanship for the rest of your life. That problem, as stated, constitutes your membership in the club.

Either you are not getting the front sight "there," or are not keeping it there during the shot. Figure out what is happening, by watching.

Homework assignment: repeat the exercise, but only firing the first shot. Getting the gun up fast and taking one shot. Look at your "first shot" group. Then, on a different piece of paper, start adding in the second shot. What do you see? No difference? Or are your "first shots" grouping small - then opening up when you started adding the second? This will give you some clues. Report back, then maybe we can offer more help. We need to figure out if it's happening on both shots, or just the second.

 

[JCSR]

Sounds like a good homework assignment. I'll try it my next time out and report back. Thanks to everyone for the help

 

[Trapper Jim]

Agreed with the above.

To add . . .

If front sight focus is difficult to vision problems, the solution is not to just change to a focus on the target. The solution is to 1) recognize that the difficulty of the shot determines how much visual information you need from the sights, and 2) ultimately seeing the sights is about aligning the gun, but actually hitting the target with bullets is about pressing the trigger and allowing the gun to discharge without significantly disturbing the alignment of the gun with the targets (i.e. "trigger control").

Moving from there, look to how you can acquire the visual information you need to verify alignment of the gun with the target. One solution is a red dot or even a laser. Less high tech methods include using different visual cues in lieu of a traditional sight picture. For example, that can take the form of using the top of the slide as a sight or using the image of back of the slide superimposed over the target to verify alignment. The latter is what the late, great Jim Cirillo called "silhouette point." Some think that it's point shooting, but it's just a different, less precise method of aimed fire that can be used when you can't resolve the actual sights.

Furthermore, using the slide, the silhouette of the rear of the slide, and other visual cues are things that most shooters develop over time with experience anyway, whether they realize it or not. For less difficult shots, "brown behind fist" and good trigger control will get A-hits all day long, whereas hits at 50 yards may require a more traditional hard focus on the top, rear edge of the front sight.

"See what you need to see" + adequate trigger control = good hit on target

This right on the money and to add to this, those of us with aging eyesight can remember that at arms length your 1/2 inch wide sight will span the 18 inch wide target you are using from just inside of each outer edge (perspective). using the top third of the[FONT="Segoe UI",Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif] target

silhouette​

[/FONT] might help.

 

[JCSR]

So, something happens when you go fast, that doesn't happen when you go slow.

That's a pretty typical problem to have, for a beginner...for an intermediate...and for an expert!

You have just identified in a nutshell the entire problem you'll be solving in marksmanship for the rest of your life. That problem, as stated, constitutes your membership in the club.

Either you are not getting the front sight "there," or are not keeping it there during the shot. Figure out what is happening, by watching.

Homework assignment: repeat the exercise, but only firing the first shot. Getting the gun up fast and taking one shot. Look at your "first shot" group. Then, on a different piece of paper, start adding in the second shot. What do you see? No difference? Or are your "first shots" grouping small - then opening up when you started adding the second? This will give you some clues. Report back, then maybe we can offer more help. We need to figure out if it's happening on both shots, or just the second.

So I shot about 50 rounds drawing and shooting one shot followed by about 100 rounds as controlled pairs. Both targets looked the same as before. I'm still letting the shot go without decent sight alignment. Almost all of my "C's" are low and/or left. Do I keep plugging away with this drill or are there others?