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  • turnandshoot4

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 29, 2008
    8,626
    48
    Kouts
    Lately I've been struggling with which classes to take. I'd like to develop myself and thereby my company but some classes lately really haven't given a good dollar per lesson cost benefit analysis.


    My schedule going forward for this year is as follows:

    TCCC with Med Tact
    VCQB with William Petty
    ECQC with Craig Douglas (2nd time)
    Private shoot house class with Joe Weyer
    Unthinkable with William Aprill
    Once a week private Jiu Jitsu lessons

    After my knee heals:
    Twice a week jiu jitsu
    Twice a month boxing


    This year I have taken:
    Red zone knife defense seminar with Jerry Wetzel
    Alternative shooting positions with Spartan Dynamics

    Any regular folks I talk to about getting into a class want to know 3 things. Am I cop, a vet, or an NRA instructor. I'm neither of the first two. That being said, the NRA instructor program did not prepare me to run a pistol 1 class let alone run a business.

    So now I'm looking at rounding out my schedule and am at a crux for further direction. Do I take more classes to develop skills 99% of the public will never use? Do I take level 1 classes to get some quip or alternative way to teach something? Do I just shoot more?

    I break down shooting classes into 3 basic categories:
    1. Tactics based classes
    2. Marksmanship based classes
    3. Accreditation classes

    Tactics based classes are tons of fun. Moving in houses with partners is fantastic and pushes my abilities to the limit. Working in a 6 man team moving and shooting as we work to own 3 sides of cover is always appealing. I just can't put much of this into practical application for regular people.

    Lastly I struggle with marksmanship classes. I have a moderate ability to self diagnose and continually ask if I'd be better off spending the class fee on 2k of ammo and shooting with a purpose (at home) or going to a match. After you add up everything associated with a class I could've paid for 10k in ammo. Which would get me further? The 10k rounds or the "nugget" I got from a class?

    I am tempted to take as many accreditation classes as possible. Classes with some sort of "certification" is all the general populous cares about. The issue is I don't see the benefit. No offense Corbon, but being a USCCA instructor is not appealing and I haven't heard good things from others that have been in classes. I took the Rangemaster's handgun instructor and advanced handgun instructor courses and people respond with "Tom who?" Fly to Utah to become one of their CCW instructors? Take all 6 levels of Henk Iverson's classes to become an instructor?

    So INGO trainers, what say you?
     

    GNRPowdeR

    Master
    Trainer Supporter
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    44   0   0
    Oct 3, 2011
    2,588
    48
    Bartholomew Co.
    OP - I'm able to relate to your predicament and am very interested in this conversation... Not able to make this a full time position, I'm working to develop this as my "passion job" vs my "insurance job". I'm aware of the majority of the classes / instructors you have mentioned and have attended many of these myself. The responses I've been given are very similar, too...

    After developing a more rounded sense of personal defense, I've realized that most people don't like the truth. The vast majority of people think that one class is all they need, however I have found some whom see the truth and begin to understand what benefits may come from being able to help themselves. Those are the people whom keep me working as a student to become a better teacher.

    Development of a solid foundation to help new shooters is what I've been focusing on in my courses (as a student and instructor). Main reason? Because most of the people around me don't know what they don't know and it might be the only chance I have to make them safer.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
     

    turnandshoot4

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 29, 2008
    8,626
    48
    Kouts
    Same for me. This is not my full time and will never be.

    That being said, if we don't teach people then the ignorance will be more widespread.
     

    Trapper Jim

    Master
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    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
    2,676
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    Arcadia
    If you are at a Expert Class in any of the action shooting sports then go for it. Otherwise to get the value out of any of the mentioned modules you will need a strong foundation of shooting skills first.
     

    devildog70

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 9, 2011
    168
    28
    Lately I've been struggling with which classes to take. I'd like to develop myself and thereby my company but some classes lately really haven't given a good dollar per lesson cost benefit analysis.


    My schedule going forward for this year is as follows:

    TCCC with Med Tact
    VCQB with William Petty
    ECQC with Craig Douglas (2nd time)
    Private shoot house class with Joe Weyer
    Unthinkable with William Aprill
    Once a week private Jiu Jitsu lessons

    After my knee heals:
    Twice a week jiu jitsu
    Twice a month boxing


    This year I have taken:
    Red zone knife defense seminar with Jerry Wetzel
    Alternative shooting positions with Spartan Dynamics

    Any regular folks I talk to about getting into a class want to know 3 things. Am I cop, a vet, or an NRA instructor. I'm neither of the first two. That being said, the NRA instructor program did not prepare me to run a pistol 1 class let alone run a business.

    So now I'm looking at rounding out my schedule and am at a crux for further direction. Do I take more classes to develop skills 99% of the public will never use? Do I take level 1 classes to get some quip or alternative way to teach something? Do I just shoot more?

    I break down shooting classes into 3 basic categories:
    1. Tactics based classes
    2. Marksmanship based classes
    3. Accreditation classes

    Tactics based classes are tons of fun. Moving in houses with partners is fantastic and pushes my abilities to the limit. Working in a 6 man team moving and shooting as we work to own 3 sides of cover is always appealing. I just can't put much of this into practical application for regular people.

    Lastly I struggle with marksmanship classes. I have a moderate ability to self diagnose and continually ask if I'd be better off spending the class fee on 2k of ammo and shooting with a purpose (at home) or going to a match. After you add up everything associated with a class I could've paid for 10k in ammo. Which would get me further? The 10k rounds or the "nugget" I got from a class?

    I am tempted to take as many accreditation classes as possible. Classes with some sort of "certification" is all the general populous cares about. The issue is I don't see the benefit. No offense Corbon, but being a USCCA instructor is not appealing and I haven't heard good things from others that have been in classes. I took the Rangemaster's handgun instructor and advanced handgun instructor courses and people respond with "Tom who?" Fly to Utah to become one of their CCW instructors? Take all 6 levels of Henk Iverson's classes to become an instructor?

    So INGO trainers, what say you?

    We've talked before. I get where you are coming from 100%. I've started to look for more classes that will get me stronger at diagnosing poor habits. I haven't taken classes from everyone, but I've come to believe that diagnosing shooters is a skill most instructors lack. There are tons of folks that can tell you what to do, but very few out there that can tell you what you are doing wrong, with any degree of accuracy.

    Everyone uses the "You're flinching/anticipating" crutch. In most cases, they are wrong. It's like most instructors have a list of things that might be wrong, and they cycle down the list randomly.

    There was a strong focus at FLETC's FITP class. NLEFIA has a three day class specifically on it. Other than that, it seems to be the forgotten topic (or at least the glossed-over topic).
     

    Randy Harris

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 22, 2012
    248
    28
    I haven't taken classes from everyone, but I've come to believe that diagnosing shooters is a skill most instructors lack. There are tons of folks that can tell you what to do, but very few out there that can tell you what you are doing wrong, with any degree of accuracy.

    That's because ...
    A. Anyone with an NRA cert (or not) can hang out a shingle and call themselves a shooting instructor whether they know how to shoot or teach either one.

    B. Most of them frankly don't shoot well enough themselves to really know what to look for (or what they are looking at) to fix someone else's issues.

    C. Diagnosing students' issues is not as sexy on Instagram as mag dumps in Molle gear....which in the end is all that really matters....when trying to be a famous gun celebrity...uh... er... I mean instructor....;)
     

    turnandshoot4

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 29, 2008
    8,626
    48
    Kouts
    I was thinking about this on the way to work today and had this though I want to bounce off of all of you.

    I think in the past I viewed the next class the way I scoff at people that think the next piece of gear will get them better.

    We don't get better at classes. We learn what to work on.

    I've taken enough classes that I'm hearing the same things over and over. Not about my shooting but about shooting/fighting as a whole.

    It might just be time to get to work.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    Everyone uses the "You're flinching/anticipating" crutch. In most cases, they are wrong. It's like most instructors have a list of things that might be wrong, and they cycle down the list randomly.

    This is something that competition shooters and THEIR instructors are generally very good at. On the national traveling road show circuit, John McPhee is very good at this. Ernest Langdon is as well, although you won't get as much personalized feedback.

    Any regular folks I talk to about getting into a class want to know 3 things. Am I cop, a vet, or an NRA instructor. I'm neither of the first two. That being said, the NRA instructor program did not prepare me to run a pistol 1 class let alone run a business.

    Gabe White isn't any of the 3, as far as I know, and is doing pretty well for himself as a trainer. People want to know how you know what you know and/or that you can actually do what you teach. Gabe White is able to demonstrate incredible technical proficiency at things like draw stroke, shooting on the move, accuracy under time pressure, etc. He's built his reputation through hard work and repeated demonstrations of those abilities. Combine a bit of marketing with his "turbo pin" awards, and the fact he's got no 'tactical' background is no longer an obstacle.

    The difficult but honest question is why would I pay you to regurgitate a class you took yourself if you've no experience or ability to add to it? Why wouldn't I just take the class from the same instructor you did? If I have the opportunity to take lessons from one of Mike Tyson's boxing coaches vs a guy who learned from one of Mike Tyson's boxing coaches but has no fights of his own and no championship fighters in his alumni list, who am I going to select? I've taken tactical medicine classes from experienced civilian and military medics with untold amounts of real world trauma experience. I've never packed a wound for real. You can count on one hand how many serious trauma cases I worked as an EMT or Combat Lifesaver and have a couple fingers left over. I might have saved a leg, I've never saved a life. Would you rather train with them, or take a class from me so I can regurgitate what my understanding of what they taught is? What's my credibility built on? A tiny amount of experience and training? Vs their superior training, experience, and documented success? So what's your credibility built on, and how do you communicate that?

    I fully agree with the NRA instructor thing. I've had some in the limited classes I've taught and the quality of their shooting and understanding of basic concepts was something of a mixed bag. The squared away ones probably didn't get it from the NRA classes. Like it or not, those are your direct competitors unless you can point to a LE, MIL, or higher level competitive shooting background.

    Tom Givens and Ernest Langdon both offer Instructor classes. I've attended the Langdon class and walked away a better instructor for it. I've not trained with Givens, but literally everything I hear from those who have is positive. People who know are going to value those names over an NRA cert, and I think it'll make you better, but it's up to you to find a way to market that and to do so to the target market that's interested in training with you.
     

    jkdbjj

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 11, 2015
    117
    18
    rural
    I have not trained with Ernest Langdon, but have friends that highly recommend him. I have trained with John McPhee and he is top shelf. Learned a bunch and had a great time------and the class size was relatively small (I think we had 8-9). The smaller the class size the more personal attention you are going to get...and it allows a student to actually work through his / her problems with the instructor as opposed to following a larger pre-planned program. Same is true with Matt McLearn, who will be back in west-central Indiana several times this year. Classes are kept very small on purpose...with real 1 on 1 time for each student built into the schedule.


    This is something that competition shooters and THEIR instructors are generally very good at. On the national traveling road show circuit, John McPhee is very good at this. Ernest Langdon is as well, although you won't get as much personalized feedback.



    Gabe White isn't any of the 3, as far as I know, and is doing pretty well for himself as a trainer. People want to know how you know what you know and/or that you can actually do what you teach. Gabe White is able to demonstrate incredible technical proficiency at things like draw stroke, shooting on the move, accuracy under time pressure, etc. He's built his reputation through hard work and repeated demonstrations of those abilities. Combine a bit of marketing with his "turbo pin" awards, and the fact he's got no 'tactical' background is no longer an obstacle.

    The difficult but honest question is why would I pay you to regurgitate a class you took yourself if you've no experience or ability to add to it? Why wouldn't I just take the class from the same instructor you did? If I have the opportunity to take lessons from one of Mike Tyson's boxing coaches vs a guy who learned from one of Mike Tyson's boxing coaches but has no fights of his own and no championship fighters in his alumni list, who am I going to select? I've taken tactical medicine classes from experienced civilian and military medics with untold amounts of real world trauma experience. I've never packed a wound for real. You can count on one hand how many serious trauma cases I worked as an EMT or Combat Lifesaver and have a couple fingers left over. I might have saved a leg, I've never saved a life. Would you rather train with them, or take a class from me so I can regurgitate what my understanding of what they taught is? What's my credibility built on? A tiny amount of experience and training? Vs their superior training, experience, and documented success? So what's your credibility built on, and how do you communicate that?

    I fully agree with the NRA instructor thing. I've had some in the limited classes I've taught and the quality of their shooting and understanding of basic concepts was something of a mixed bag. The squared away ones probably didn't get it from the NRA classes. Like it or not, those are your direct competitors unless you can point to a LE, MIL, or higher level competitive shooting background.

    Tom Givens and Ernest Langdon both offer Instructor classes. I've attended the Langdon class and walked away a better instructor for it. I've not trained with Givens, but literally everything I hear from those who have is positive. People who know are going to value those names over an NRA cert, and I think it'll make you better, but it's up to you to find a way to market that and to do so to the target market that's interested in training with you.
     

    turnandshoot4

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 29, 2008
    8,626
    48
    Kouts
    This is something that competition shooters and THEIR instructors are generally very good at. On the national traveling road show circuit, John McPhee is very good at this. Ernest Langdon is as well, although you won't get as much personalized feedback.



    Gabe White isn't any of the 3, as far as I know, and is doing pretty well for himself as a trainer. People want to know how you know what you know and/or that you can actually do what you teach. Gabe White is able to demonstrate incredible technical proficiency at things like draw stroke, shooting on the move, accuracy under time pressure, etc. He's built his reputation through hard work and repeated demonstrations of those abilities. Combine a bit of marketing with his "turbo pin" awards, and the fact he's got no 'tactical' background is no longer an obstacle.

    The difficult but honest question is why would I pay you to regurgitate a class you took yourself if you've no experience or ability to add to it? Why wouldn't I just take the class from the same instructor you did? If I have the opportunity to take lessons from one of Mike Tyson's boxing coaches vs a guy who learned from one of Mike Tyson's boxing coaches but has no fights of his own and no championship fighters in his alumni list, who am I going to select? I've taken tactical medicine classes from experienced civilian and military medics with untold amounts of real world trauma experience. I've never packed a wound for real. You can count on one hand how many serious trauma cases I worked as an EMT or Combat Lifesaver and have a couple fingers left over. I might have saved a leg, I've never saved a life. Would you rather train with them, or take a class from me so I can regurgitate what my understanding of what they taught is? What's my credibility built on? A tiny amount of experience and training? Vs their superior training, experience, and documented success? So what's your credibility built on, and how do you communicate that?

    I fully agree with the NRA instructor thing. I've had some in the limited classes I've taught and the quality of their shooting and understanding of basic concepts was something of a mixed bag. The squared away ones probably didn't get it from the NRA classes. Like it or not, those are your direct competitors unless you can point to a LE, MIL, or higher level competitive shooting background.

    I'm not worried about competitors. If one day my business falters and dies it will be because I didn't do enough. It has nothing to do with my competition. In the end this comes back to what the mission statement of a company is. If it is "To make as much money as possible." then yes, be worried about competition. I want people to have access to safe and effective firearms handling. For that to happen businesses have to exist, classes have to be affordable and accessible.

    Tom Givens and Ernest Langdon both offer Instructor classes. I've attended the Langdon class and walked away a better instructor for it. I've not trained with Givens, but literally everything I hear from those who have is positive. People who know are going to value those names over an NRA cert, and I think it'll make you better, but it's up to you to find a way to market that and to do so to the target market that's interested in training with you.

    I've taken Tom's handgun instructor and advanced handgun instructor classes. When I tell people this they say, "Tom who?" Outside of the switched on training people no one knows who Tom is.

    Interesting points BBI! Responses in red to specific points because I can't do the cool multi quote feature.

    I call the conundrum "why take it from you when I can take it from them" a paper resume. After realizing what a paper resume was, I began taking classes from guys that had "been there" instead of guys that had taken classes from them. If they could build a paper resume, so could I.

    In that I ran into a problem.
    1. They were expensive.
    2. They were far.
    3. They weren't always great.

    High instructor to student ratios, inaccurate course descriptions, and ballistic masturbation have made me leery anymore. Layer in some war stories that they didn't put into a book and the value of the course goes down even further (IMHO).

    I know McPhee has a low student to instructor ratio but wow that cost.

    Realistically in person is the only way I can get course feedback and most answer with a shoulder shrug and say "It was ok." When it is terrible they will tell you, but only in person.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    Not worrying about your competitors is a mistake. If you think your classes are superior to the NRA instructors down the street, yet you do nothing to differentiate yourself and draw customers to you, did you accomplish what you wanted? Did you get what you think you offer that they don't into the heads of the masses? If you think you are just another instructor in a sea of fungible instructors, then don't worry about your competitors. If you think you're better and want to get that knowledge out, do you not owe it to the marketplace to establish that in some way? If you don't think you're better, why are you bothering? Just get your NRA cert and be one of the drops in the sea.

    Yes, you can compete on price. Can you underbid the NRA folks? Enough to overcome the name recognition and assumed credibility the market assigns to the NRA affiliation?

    Regardless of if your mission statement is "make money" or "teach people the correct way" if you aren't getting butts in the seats, you're not going to accomplish it. I don't run my own training company because I don't have the time or inclination for the marketing and logistics it requires to actually be successful at it. It's a business, and regardless of profit motivation, if you don't treat it as such you're unlikely to do what you seem to want to do.
     

    Brad69

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 16, 2016
    5,104
    77
    Perry county
    So I breakdown civilian training into 3 areas.

    1. Marksmanship
    In this area a person would not need any Mil/Leo experience, this is based on your skills as a instructor, the ability to diagnose and correct students. IMO is a skill that can be acquired though training and proficiency maintained though practical application. If a person wanted to expand into the IDPA instructor and the like you would at least need to be a competitor and be good at it. While a person can be taught marksmanship part of it is natural skill hand eye coordination ect. I litterly taught marksmanship to thousands of people during my time as a Drill Sergeant I could give a class right now on sight alignment or point of aim vs point of impact ect. I find it incredibly boring and do not have the interpersonal skills to be a effective Instructor in this area due to lack of interest.

    2. Defensive carry/Street Survival Skills
    Street Skills this area Leo experience is invaluable, Mil experience is ok but really doesn’t apply much IMO. A LEO has the advantages of working with the “street people” that commit crimes and witnessing shooting scenes ect., it’s hard to replace that kind of experience with training.

    In the Defensive carry area a good instructor without Leo/Mil experience can teach draw stroke eye snap ect. How and what to carry, the basic law of carry so on and so forth. In more advanced areas a skilled instructor has to develop personal shooting skills and the ability to stand out from the crowd.
    To give a example of how MIL experience is limited value in this area I personally drew my pistol twice for real in 24 years. I would bet that some of the LEO’s will draw their sidearms more than twice today!

    3. Tactical Classes
    IMO Mil or LEO experience is required this is more of applying your experience in the field to instruction this takes years of work to gain the skills to be effective in this arena. A person would need the ability to recite Battle Drill #8 instruct a class on it then conduct practical application on it. Most people looking for this type of training have a purpose for it beyond personal fulfillment. This type of training has a high risk level involved and I personally would not train with people on high risk tasks that didn’t have a baseline of skill beforehand.

    I grew up in a culture that has a formal instructor certification program, a instructor has to be accredited in order to teach. That being said my last assignment was the 1SG of the Infantry instructor Company at Ft. Sill, OK I had 110 Instructors that were responsible for 34 ranges.
    I evaluated Instructors about three days a week. Some were great instructors and others were always the ammo NCO or safety guy even if they were just as qualified as the next guy on paper.

    I research classes to attend and select them on a basis of what can I learn for my money. Medical training will be from a medical expert Pistol training form expert pistol Instructor ect. I have taken training from some instructors that are here on INGO that I consider to be outstanding I never thought to look at “credentials” as far as NRA or something like that.

    If it was me I would find a focus for you business and then train towards that goal, find out what your perspective students want to see and tailor your “tool box” to the audience. Room clearing training really isn’t going to help in training someone who has never shot a pistol before.
    Its a crowded field for a firearms “Instructor” some are very successful look at the Yeager dude love him or hate him he makes a sweet living doing what he does.

    Or skip all the hard work and get a picture of you with Mas Ayoob put on a business card along with the words “Master Supreme NRA Instructor” That should work!
     

    devildog70

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 9, 2011
    168
    28
    That's because ...
    A. Anyone with an NRA cert (or not) can hang out a shingle and call themselves a shooting instructor whether they know how to shoot or teach either one.

    If all a guy has going for themselves is a civilian NRA cert, I won't even give them a second look. I have three of them - "unimpressive" is being charitable.
    B. Most of them frankly don't shoot well enough themselves to really know what to look for (or what they are looking at) to fix someone else's issues.

    I've trained with a lot of the "top names." All of them were excellent shooters. Few of them were great at diagnosing other shooters. Themselves? Sure...but not others. I'm not downing them as instructors - I have generally gotten exactly what I expected from the folks I train with. I don't go to an individual to learn everything. I find individuals that have a reputation for excellence in a particular area, and go to them to improve that area for myself.

    C. Diagnosing students' issues is not as sexy on Instagram as mag dumps in Molle gear....which in the end is all that really matters....when trying to be a famous gun celebrity...uh... er... I mean instructor....;)

    Agreed. That's why I think that is what separates phenomenal instructors from the "good," or "mediocre."

    Add in the instructors that I absolutely, positively do not want anywhere on my training resume, if it ever gets subpoenaed, and the pool shrinks even further.
     
    Last edited:

    devildog70

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 9, 2011
    168
    28
    This is something that competition shooters and THEIR instructors are generally very good at. On the national traveling road show circuit, John McPhee is very good at this. Ernest Langdon is as well, although you won't get as much personalized feedback.

    Shrek is on my list in October. Already have my spot paid for, and bid time in the book for it.


    Gabe White isn't any of the 3, as far as I know, and is doing pretty well for himself as a trainer. People want to know how you know what you know and/or that you can actually do what you teach. Gabe White is able to demonstrate incredible technical proficiency at things like draw stroke, shooting on the move, accuracy under time pressure, etc. He's built his reputation through hard work and repeated demonstrations of those abilities. Combine a bit of marketing with his "turbo pin" awards, and the fact he's got no 'tactical' background is no longer an obstacle.

    Gabe is also one of a handful to ever shoot Rogers Shooting School Test clean. And the only one to do it from concealment. If your name is on that list, it goes a long way to providing credibility. Having been there, I can attest that is an ego-crushing experience, and that its rep is well-earned.

    The difficult but honest question is why would I pay you to regurgitate a class you took yourself if you've no experience or ability to add to it? Why wouldn't I just take the class from the same instructor you did? If I have the opportunity to take lessons from one of Mike Tyson's boxing coaches vs a guy who learned from one of Mike Tyson's boxing coaches but has no fights of his own and no championship fighters in his alumni list, who am I going to select? I've taken tactical medicine classes from experienced civilian and military medics with untold amounts of real world trauma experience. I've never packed a wound for real. You can count on one hand how many serious trauma cases I worked as an EMT or Combat Lifesaver and have a couple fingers left over. I might have saved a leg, I've never saved a life. Would you rather train with them, or take a class from me so I can regurgitate what my understanding of what they taught is? What's my credibility built on? A tiny amount of experience and training? Vs their superior training, experience, and documented success? So what's your credibility built on, and how do you communicate that?

    I fully agree with the NRA instructor thing. I've had some in the limited classes I've taught and the quality of their shooting and understanding of basic concepts was something of a mixed bag. The squared away ones probably didn't get it from the NRA classes. Like it or not, those are your direct competitors unless you can point to a LE, MIL, or higher level competitive shooting background.

    Tom Givens and Ernest Langdon both offer Instructor classes. I've attended the Langdon class and walked away a better instructor for it. I've not trained with Givens, but literally everything I hear from those who have is positive. People who know are going to value those names over an NRA cert, and I think it'll make you better, but it's up to you to find a way to market that and to do so to the target market that's interested in training with you.

    I was in the Instructor and Advanced Instructor class with Turnandshoot. I personally found both to be worth the money.
    The unfortunate truth is that LE and Mil give access to certs that others won't have. Right or wrong, those certs are given a certain automatic credence by the general public...particularly those who really don't know what they don't know. I was an instructor in the military, and like someone above me said, the quality varied from stellar to meh. The training track was excellent. But accountability issues allowed some to slip through. FLETC offers excellent instructor training, but again, the individual is the question. The NRA LE coursework is pretty solid, if dated. It, like most LE training is there merely to keep the true morons out. The state-level instructor pathways are the same way.


    However, all of those pathways offer the possibility of improving individuals who want to improve, as well as giving some of that auto-credence. I'm not sure what is out there on the non-LE/mil side that compares.
     
    Last edited:

    T755

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Nov 22, 2008
    230
    18
    As someone who has been a firearms instructor, and a few other things, for 25 years and a few thousand students I have some input for you.
    1. Gunsite. Go there. soak up everything you can. The methods, the wisdom of a very accomplished cadre of instructors and the building blocks of where things started. If will absolutely tighten up your fundamentals with a balance on speed, accuracy and defensive considerations in a very respected environment. It will give you a very sold basis to build from and add to what you already have.
    2. Do not solely take Beards McOperator classes. When I was teaching privately I was amazed at the mall ninjas that only owned 5-11 pants, came with their own helmet and talked exclusively with knife hands. Learn bits a pieces from each discipline and craft your product. Ask yourself what niche am I going to pursue that sets me apart? Womens classes? Church Preparedness? ETC. Realize some classes will require some things after your name to be taken seriously. A NRA instructor teaching a active shooter class or a NRA/ILEA Instructor with street time and experience teaching the same class. Which would draw more students?
    3. Shoot multiple kinds of competition. USPSA, IDPA, PPC, 3 gun. Steal and use the lessons you learn from this. Realize gaming and gunfighting are not the same, but can be mingled to create a lesson plan or course of fire. Many of my early courses were straight out of the IPSC book, modified to instill tactical considerations in a training evolution.
    4. Consider being a Reserve Officer and getting some "street cred". Things after your name matters commercially. You can be just a NRA Instructor, but after that you list that you are a Gunsite grad, ILEA Firearms Instructor with X number of years training and working in law enforcement, it smooths the roughness of not having military/high speed low drag credentials. People do seek that out.
    5. Just like people will vet your product you should vet everything you attend and damn sure everything you list on your experience. There are shady people posing as trainers. You don't want to be the next guy belly rolling out of a pickup truck or shooting a ceiling on camera.
    6. Shoot a metric ton. Be able to call your mistakes and be able to shoot a course clean in front of a crowd. The idea isn't to make students worship you or feel lowly. You are demonstrating you can show what you are selling. In concert with this be able to translate this experience to the student. What works for you may not be able to be physically possible or clear in their mind. You have to be able to say look I just shot a 3.28 El Prez, yours was 6 flat. This is what you need to try to shave time off to get your hits or be more accurate. Learn how to connect with people and explain things to them.
    7. Take a legal class from Guy Relford. Knowing how to teach and shoot is great. Have a complete understanding of the legal ramifications of the reasons, aftermath and planning of shooting.
    8. And finally take some business classes on how to operate your own business. It is not nearly as easy as it appears on the surface. Sometimes its better to be a adjunct, or contract guy, that being the guy the runs the show. Network with other instructors as you build credentials and credibility. Its a tight knit group but they will help their own.

    Good luck
     

    devildog70

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 9, 2011
    168
    28
    As someone who has been a firearms instructor, and a few other things, for 25 years and a few thousand students I have some input for you.
    1. Gunsite. Go there. soak up everything you can. The methods, the wisdom of a very accomplished cadre of instructors and the building blocks of where things started. If will absolutely tighten up your fundamentals with a balance on speed, accuracy and defensive considerations in a very respected environment. It will give you a very sold basis to build from and add to what you already have.
    2. Do not solely take Beards McOperator classes. When I was teaching privately I was amazed at the mall ninjas that only owned 5-11 pants, came with their own helmet and talked exclusively with knife hands. Learn bits a pieces from each discipline and craft your product. Ask yourself what niche am I going to pursue that sets me apart? Womens classes? Church Preparedness? ETC. Realize some classes will require some things after your name to be taken seriously. A NRA instructor teaching a active shooter class or a NRA/ILEA Instructor with street time and experience teaching the same class. Which would draw more students?
    3. Shoot multiple kinds of competition. USPSA, IDPA, PPC, 3 gun. Steal and use the lessons you learn from this. Realize gaming and gunfighting are not the same, but can be mingled to create a lesson plan or course of fire. Many of my early courses were straight out of the IPSC book, modified to instill tactical considerations in a training evolution.
    4. Consider being a Reserve Officer and getting some "street cred". Things after your name matters commercially. You can be just a NRA Instructor, but after that you list that you are a Gunsite grad, ILEA Firearms Instructor with X number of years training and working in law enforcement, it smooths the roughness of not having military/high speed low drag credentials. People do seek that out.
    5. Just like people will vet your product you should vet everything you attend and damn sure everything you list on your experience. There are shady people posing as trainers. You don't want to be the next guy belly rolling out of a pickup truck or shooting a ceiling on camera.
    6. Shoot a metric ton. Be able to call your mistakes and be able to shoot a course clean in front of a crowd. The idea isn't to make students worship you or feel lowly. You are demonstrating you can show what you are selling. In concert with this be able to translate this experience to the student. What works for you may not be able to be physically possible or clear in their mind. You have to be able to say look I just shot a 3.28 El Prez, yours was 6 flat. This is what you need to try to shave time off to get your hits or be more accurate. Learn how to connect with people and explain things to them.
    7. Take a legal class from Guy Relford. Knowing how to teach and shoot is great. Have a complete understanding of the legal ramifications of the reasons, aftermath and planning of shooting.
    8. And finally take some business classes on how to operate your own business. It is not nearly as easy as it appears on the surface. Sometimes its better to be a adjunct, or contract guy, that being the guy the runs the show. Network with other instructors as you build credentials and credibility. Its a tight knit group but they will help their own.

    Good luck

    Excellent advice. I've started studying topics I never considered, since deciding to try to make a go of it as an instructor after retirement. Business, human performance, adult learning theory, psychology, ballistics...it never ends. Especially if you try to stay ahead of the curve, in terms of what students may ask about (having at least a cursory education on the "latest and greatest" - red dots on pistols being a prime example).

    Basically, if you want to be successful as an instructor (and yeah, "success" means different things to each of us), it's going to be a grind. It's gonna cost - in money, in ammo, and in time.
     

    jlw

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 30, 2018
    127
    28
    Georgia
    I wrote this piece in 2010, years before I dove into the deep end of the open enrollment world as either a student or instructor:

    On Trainers and Training

    Since I wrote it, I have partaken in hundreds of hours of high-end open enrollment training and added numerous other badge-toting instructor credentials. The context of the article still holds true in my opinion.

    I have some more thoughts on the issue that I don't have time to put to keyboard at the moment.
     

    Trapper Jim

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
    2,676
    77
    Arcadia
    I’ve seen so many gun enthusiasts concentrate on equipment, tactics, scenarios and name brand training camp tshirts when they have not mastered the fundamentals that it reminds me of trying to build a house by trying to put the foundation on last.
     
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