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  1. #31
    Somewhat Purple-ish rhino's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    Hostage situations and making a canoe out of your kids head is the thing I am talking about.

    Why woyld it not get turned on when the gun comes up.

    But, Coach! In that situation, "I'll just . . ."



    "The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State."
    INDIANA CONSTITUTION
    Article 1 - Bill of Rights - Section 32

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    To prevail you must ACT!

  2. #32
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosermann View Post
    I debated where to put this, but since it's about how setup will affect carbine use, "pre-tactics" if you will, I decided to put it here. Came across this article today which, near the end (Using Lasers and Optics section), seems to have a genius solution to the issue of hold-over with the AR platform.

    https://www.policemag.com/517091/the...laser-sighting

    In short, red dot mounted at 12 o'clock and laser mounted at 6 o'clock are both zeroed at 50 yds.

    Both dots can be seen through the optic to converge at 50 yards.

    At distances less than 50 yards, the point of impact is half-way between the dots as viewed through the optic.

    Seems like a nifty idea. Has anyone tried a setup like this?
    So what happens at target distances BEYOND 50 YARDS?

    The two laser beams REVERSE their relationship (green dot on top, red on bottom). You might naively say just aim between the two dots beyond 50 yards as well. Problem is that the round might still be going up relative to the "point of aim" or it might be going down (depends on your zero and the target distance). The easy answer is that this is for your "CQB" rifle and that you won't be shooting beyond 100 yards or so. Are you sure? You can't envision even one scenario where you might want to take a shot at say 200 yards with your "CQB" rifle?

    I'm going to have to do some calculations to figure out how this setup might work out to 200 yards or so. My initial inclination is that it is likely to be confusing.

    Bruce Williams
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  3. #33
    Plinker

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino View Post
    That sounds like a good argument for regulating your iron sights to zero at the same distances as your optics (in your case, 50 yards for your near zero and about 200 m for your far zero). I don't see a good reason to have the two different if one is a backup to the other.

    If you were shooting 3-gun or otherwise using offset iron sights for close range and a magnified optic for longer ranges, then it would make sense to have different zeros.
    You are probably correct.

    I have rear sights with crude ballistic drop compensation built into them for shooting at longer ranges, a Knights Armament on one carbine and a MaTech on the other. So I zeroed them per directions so that the BDC would be more or less on if I ever wanted or needed to use them at longer ranges.

    Having said that, I have not shot with either set of irons beyond 100 yards, and very likely won't, so it would probably make sense to set them to the same zero as my short distance optics. But given that it is already unlikely that I will need to use an AR for self defense, it is even more unlikely that my optic will fail doing so. The carbine that I do have set up for potential defensive purposes wears a Vortex Spitfire 1X prism scope with an etched circle/dot reticle. So even if the electronics go out, I will still have an aiming reticle short of some catastrophic failure.

  4. #34
    Marksman Trapper Jim's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    It will always come down to skill. I wonder how many of the "rifleman" crowd hete use a scope or dot instead of iron sights? A good rifleman dors not need those either.

    You think? To recap this thread after re reading the posts I offer this. I do not see where anyone thinks there is not a problem with holdover. But just like the rookie Pistol shooter jerks the trigger, the Rifleman should understand and practice his known MOA, and cartridge performance, set the zero to whatever (mine is 100 yrds on all rifles Iron or Scope) and use the tools he has to adjust accordingly at ANY distance. (not that I am in the habit of shooting rifles at thirty feet) Understanding exterior ballistics, trajectory, known size target guides as rangefinder assistance, dimensions of adjustment on sights, and dimension of subtensions on scope reticals are handy. I relate this like using a calculator, sure it makes math answers easy but you still should know how to do the math. At a NRA HighPower match 40 years ago I had more trouble going from standing to sitting than I did understanding the adj value on my A2 sights. Is holdover a problem, not any more than any other fundamental. Half of my rifles are iron sights including one Vernier on my Sharps 45/70. My scoped rifles are all 1 MOA accurate so my 100 yrd zero makes the math easy. I still prefer my scope reticles over a dot as the dot offers no subtension reference. The one dot I have on my Bushmaster is a 3MOA as I do not use it up close.

    Having said all this, I don't want to go there as to why Rifles may not be your best tool for CQB.
    "See you on the Range"

  5. #35
    Grandmaster Coach's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino View Post
    But, Coach! In that situation, "I'll just . . ."
    That is the application this all started with abd has been basically ugnored in the thread.
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com


  6. #36
    Grandmaster Coach's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trapper Jim View Post
    You think? To recap this thread after re reading the posts I offer this. I do not see where anyone thinks there is not a problem with holdover. But just like the rookie Pistol shooter jerks the trigger, the Rifleman should understand and practice his known MOA, and cartridge performance, set the zero to whatever (mine is 100 yrds on all rifles Iron or Scope) and use the tools he has to adjust accordingly at ANY distance. (not that I am in the habit of shooting rifles at thirty feet) Understanding exterior ballistics, trajectory, known size target guides as rangefinder assistance, dimensions of adjustment on sights, and dimension of subtensions on scope reticals are handy. I relate this like using a calculator, sure it makes math answers easy but you still should know how to do the math. At a NRA HighPower match 40 years ago I had more trouble going from standing to sitting than I did understanding the adj value on my A2 sights. Is holdover a problem, not any more than any other fundamental. Half of my rifles are iron sights including one Vernier on my Sharps 45/70. My scoped rifles are all 1 MOA accurate so my 100 yrd zero makes the math easy. I still prefer my scope reticles over a dot as the dot offers no subtension reference. The one dot I have on my Bushmaster is a 3MOA as I do not use it up close.

    Having said all this, I don't want to go there as to why Rifles may not be your best tool for CQB.
    Long range shooting has nothing to do with what started this
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com


  7. #37
    Somewhat Purple-ish rhino's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    This does not seem like a solution from an engineer.
    I'm not a very good engineer!



    "The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State."
    INDIANA CONSTITUTION
    Article 1 - Bill of Rights - Section 32

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    To prevail you must ACT!

  8. #38
    Marksman Trapper Jim's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    Long range shooting has nothing to do with what started this

    Maybe not .. maybe so. Trying to adapt rifles to pistol ranges created the holdover question. Trying to add multiple sights and such to the weapon to auto correct the need for holdover May in fact be possible but I believe the end does not justify the means when you can adjust from a POI anywhere the target presents. Seems like the more electronics and stuff will not only make the rifle balance poorly, be heavier and prone to things going wrong or trying
    to decide what and which one we’re looking thu and at the same time shut down most of our awareness skills cause of tunnel vision concentration in a busy room?

    Churchmouse said it best in another thread that we loose the meaning in the words thru this medium and I am not the best writer but folks can do it anyway they like.

    I think trying to buy my way around having not to holdover is like carrying around a ransom rest to cure trigger jerk.


    Theres always that
    Last edited by Trapper Jim; 3 Weeks Ago at 20:44.
    "See you on the Range"

  9. #39
    Master Jackson's Avatar

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    If 2 and a halfish inches of sight offset eats up all the margin in my hostage shot, I'm probably going to wait for a better shot. I just don't have the huevos for those kind of risks.


  10. #40
    I Care...Really
    churchmouse's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    If 2 and a halfish inches of sight offset eats up all the margin in my hostage shot, I'm probably going to wait for a better shot. I just don't have the huevos for those kind of risks.
    This thread has given me pause as to how I have set up my home defense AR's.
    25 yard matching red dot to laser using a good bore laser and then verifying on paper at the same distance.
    Last night I went out and tested the the theory. Tonight I am going to tighten up on my distance's. I will do this inside the house as that is most likely where these will get the intended use. This will greatly reduce the effects being discussed in this thread.
    There is no reason to set up a dedicated home defense rifle at 50 yards.
    AKA..Thor. Odin son. God of thunder.
    But you can call me John.....Force.

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