A solution to hold over?

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • cosermann

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Aug 15, 2008
    8,371
    113
    I debated where to put this, but since it's about how setup will affect carbine use, "pre-tactics" if you will, I decided to put it here. Came across this article today which, near the end (Using Lasers and Optics section), seems to have a genius solution to the issue of hold-over with the AR platform.

    https://www.policemag.com/517091/the-case-for-laser-sighting

    In short, red dot mounted at 12 o'clock and laser mounted at 6 o'clock are both zeroed at 50 yds.

    Both dots can be seen through the optic to converge at 50 yards.

    At distances less than 50 yards, the point of impact is half-way between the dots as viewed through the optic.

    Seems like a nifty idea. Has anyone tried a setup like this?
     

    1mil-high

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    11   0   0
    Oct 30, 2013
    353
    28
    Indianapolis
    In theory it will work, but it also over-complicates something that can easily be trained. Anyone who is going to use an AR platform rifle for defensive or similar use needs to have trained with it to a level that they are comfortable with their zero and sightline bore line adjustments. Just my two cents.
     

    Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    In theory it will work, but it also over-complicates something that can easily be trained. Anyone who is going to use an AR platform rifle for defensive or similar use needs to have trained with it to a level that they are comfortable with their zero and sightline bore line adjustments. Just my two cents.


    I agree with your statement. I am not confident that it happens much if any. Holdover can and does bite many high level grandmaster competitors. Those types train a lot more than most people. Defensive purposes are pretty high stake as you acknowledge.
     

    chezuki

    Human
    Rating - 100%
    48   0   0
    Mar 18, 2009
    34,151
    113
    Behind Bars
    Isn’t “holdover” already a solution to the “issue” of distance between bore and optic? Why do we need a more complicated solution to the already simple solution?
     

    Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    Because people screw ut up constantly.

    I think this idea has merit. You have a very visual point of reference when doing high stakes shooting. I would like to experiment with it.
     

    SmileDocHill

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    61   0   0
    Mar 26, 2009
    6,159
    113
    Westfield
    In theory it will work, but it also over-complicates something that can easily be trained. Anyone who is going to use an AR platform rifle for defensive or similar use needs to have trained with it to a level that they are comfortable with their zero and sightline bore line adjustments. Just my two cents.

    I agree with your statement. I am not confident that it happens much if any. Holdover can and does bite many high level grandmaster competitors. Those types train a lot more than most people. Defensive purposes are pretty high stake as you acknowledge.

    I'm interested in hearing from more experienced people than myself. What I have heard mimics both statements above, which can sound contradictory but reality isn't always that cut and dried.
    Larry Vickers mentioned in the carbine class that the hold over is something to overcome and causes problems even with highly trained and practiced war fighters and police. I think it would take use by a lot of professionals, for a lot of time, to see if this technique actually reduces bad shots due to failure to account for holdover when the stress is on.
    Taking a shot with irons or a single dot under stress can result in aiming and shooting without applying thought to considering offsets because the brain has trouble with higher functions in stress. I can see having 2 dots in the field of view causing the higher function part of the brain to wake up a little by having to at a minimum make a choice on which dot to use. This could help divert your attention to marksmanship principals and give you the reminder to split the difference between the dots.
    I'm not saying it is a bad idea. My limited understanding of psychology has me thinking it may have its merits though. Until it is "tested in the field" for some time it will all be predictions and conversation.
     

    SmileDocHill

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    61   0   0
    Mar 26, 2009
    6,159
    113
    Westfield
    Because people screw ut up constantly.

    I think this idea has merit. You have a very visual point of reference when doing high stakes shooting. I would like to experiment with it.

    I'm glad to see this is your position on this. It does seem weird at first and overly complicated but the more experienced the person is that I have heard from the more they mention it is still a problem. I don't think it is a solution looking for a problem. The problem is still there in real application, in spite of having fixes that work logically and even training.
     

    Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    I'm glad to see this is your position on this. It does seem weird at first and overly complicated but the more experienced the person is that I have heard from the more they mention it is still a problem. I don't think it is a solution looking for a problem. The problem is still there in real application, in spite of having fixes that work logically and even training.

    All of us can get excited and press a shot off without a proper sight picture. Ask me how I know. Normally this is just a matter of a poor score or lower placement which is not fatal. Not getting hold over right when the stakes are a family members life from across the room is a different beast completely.

    I think most of the time both would not be needed. But in the rare case where a high degree of precision is needed. This makes sense. Such a set up would tell me to a much higher degree of certainty where the point of impact is going to be. Dots and laser both require a target focus and so nothing is new in that department. I can visually confirm and adjust the sight picture and then put all my focus on achieving a surprise break of the trigger.

    We all know the mistakes on holdover are human error and should not happen with a high degree of training and practice, and yet it persists. There is a problem that exists and this option or solution seems to be with merit.
     

    Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    I liked the article a lot. I think the author was spot on regarding many things. You could hear the voice of experience talking in that article and experience sounds just like wisdom. I do not own a laser at all, but I am not against them. I think the ability to put a visible dot on someone's chest to communicate very clearly is a valuable thing. Anyone we can avoid shooting is a victory. Dot on someone's chest cuts through a lot of communication barriers. If the laser speaks clearly the hollow points may have the option of remaining silent.
     

    Hop

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    16   0   0
    Jan 21, 2008
    5,084
    83
    Indy
    A better idea imo would be a 12 o'clock RDS and a 6 o'clock laser of a contrasting color that is NOT a dot but a line.

    Using Tapatalk to annoy my INGO buddies cameramonkey & churchmouse. Hi!
     

    Hop

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    16   0   0
    Jan 21, 2008
    5,084
    83
    Indy
    Stage 6 @ Hearbreak run-n-gun last February...
    After making an off hand 100 yard hit at position 1, run to position 2. Put 10 rounds into a small bullseye at close range. The stage went on from there but as I started pumping rounds into that little bullseye as fast as I could, I started seeing the hits & they were landing low because I held LOW! Stupid me got it backwards. Stress, high heart rate, fatigue all lead to doing things wrong sometimes. At least I could see some hits and pulled the last several up into the black. Sure didn't help my score at all.

    One of these days, scopes will be smart enough to auto-range the target and adjust the reticle for you.
     

    patience0830

    .22 magician
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 96.6%
    28   1   0
    Nov 3, 2008
    17,585
    149
    Not far from the tree
    Neat idea. My only beef is that it needs 2, count 'em, 2 sets of batteries that can crap out on you at any time.

    Bet my life gun has a tritium front sight cowitnessed with an aimpoint 9000L. If the dot dies, I can still see the post through the tube.
     

    Trapper Jim

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
    2,676
    77
    Arcadia
    I debated where to put this, but since it's about how setup will affect carbine use, "pre-tactics" if you will, I decided to put it here. Came across this article today which, near the end (Using Lasers and Optics section), seems to have a genius solution to the issue of hold-over with the AR platform.

    https://www.policemag.com/517091/the-case-for-laser-sighting

    In short, red dot mounted at 12 o'clock and laser mounted at 6 o'clock are both zeroed at 50 yds.

    Both dots can be seen through the optic to converge at 50 yards.

    At distances less than 50 yards, the point of impact is half-way between the dots as viewed through the optic.

    Seems like a nifty idea. Has anyone tried a setup like this?

    Seems like a solution to a non existant use. So I understand we want a zero of offensive distances on our carbine but want it to be a defensive CQB firearm for inside the house or parking lot? Just askin
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    Seems like a solution to a non existant use. So I understand we want a zero of offensive distances on our carbine but want it to be a defensive CQB firearm for inside the house or parking lot? Just askin

    Thats my confusion. My HD AR's are sited at 25 yards. Across the back yard. Any farther and it would be me in a jamb if I used them and even at 25 it would be rough.
    Laser are green and red dot optics. At that distance in a defensive situation a man size target is not difficult to site.

    I see the issue out at 50 and even mine at 25 I see the POA change closer in.
     

    Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    I am not sure where the crowd that say this problem does not exist are coming from? :dunno:

    People shooting low because of not holding over properly is almost cliche. I am not even a long gun guy but see it all the time. I just set up a stage last weekend with this trap in in for a Grand Master PCC shooter. I got him. Close range AR users are a dime a dozen and this is a thing.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    Quite a few years ago I proposed an aid for confirming alignment of ARs at close distances. My idea was to mount a laser on each side of the barrel (back then, from the front sight tower) at the same height as the bore line. When shooting at less then 20 yards or so, the shooter would see the two lasers and know that the bullet would impact at the same elevation and more or less in between the two dots. It was simple and would work well, but no one seemed interested. With cheap lasers and rails on the sides of fore ends, it would be easy to try.

    A simpler solution is to use an EOTech for your primary sighting device. The lower tick on the 65 MOA circle works well as an aiming point for close distances. I have EOTechs, so there was no need to pursue my dual laser idea.

    Those who think this isn't an issue haven't seen enough people shooting targets with ARs at close ranges under any kind of stress. It doesn't matter at what distance you zero your optic or iron sights. The need for holdover at close distances is due to the physical offset between the bore line and the line of sight on an AR. If you use a rifle that has sights sitting on the barrel, then it's obviously not an issue for you. People who shoot M1s, M1 Carbines, FALs, 10-22s with iron sights don't have to worry about it. People who shoot AKs probably don't have to worry as much as AR shooters (sights closer to the bore). This is another reason why red dots mounted on top of carry handles was a less than stellar idea. It greatly exacerbated the need to holdover at close distances both in magnitude and the distances at which it was necessary.
     
    Last edited:

    Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    Quite a few years ago I proposed an aid for confirming alignment of ARs at close distances. My idea was to mount a laser on each side of the barrel (back then, from the front sight tower) at the same height as the bore line. When shooting at less then 20 yards or so, the shooter would see the two lasers and know that the bullet would impact at the same elevation and more or less in between the two dots. It was simple and would work well, but no one seemed interested. With cheap lasers and rails on the sides of fore ends, it would be easy to try.

    A simpler solution is to use an EOTech for your primary sighting device. The lower tick on the 65 MOA circle works well as an aiming point for close distances. I have EOTechs, so there was no need to pursue my dual laser idea.

    This does not seem like a solution from an engineer.
     
    Top Bottom