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  1. #1
    Grandmaster cosermann's Avatar

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    A solution to hold over?

    I debated where to put this, but since it's about how setup will affect carbine use, "pre-tactics" if you will, I decided to put it here. Came across this article today which, near the end (Using Lasers and Optics section), seems to have a genius solution to the issue of hold-over with the AR platform.

    https://www.policemag.com/517091/the...laser-sighting

    In short, red dot mounted at 12 o'clock and laser mounted at 6 o'clock are both zeroed at 50 yds.

    Both dots can be seen through the optic to converge at 50 yards.

    At distances less than 50 yards, the point of impact is half-way between the dots as viewed through the optic.

    Seems like a nifty idea. Has anyone tried a setup like this?
    Nothing is everything, but everything is something. - Ayoob

  2. #2
    Grandmaster

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    -----------------------------------------------
    Done, done, and I’m on to the next one...
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  3. #3
    Plinker

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    In theory it will work, but it also over-complicates something that can easily be trained. Anyone who is going to use an AR platform rifle for defensive or similar use needs to have trained with it to a level that they are comfortable with their zero and sightline bore line adjustments. Just my two cents.

  4. #4
    Grandmaster Coach's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1mil-high View Post
    In theory it will work, but it also over-complicates something that can easily be trained. Anyone who is going to use an AR platform rifle for defensive or similar use needs to have trained with it to a level that they are comfortable with their zero and sightline bore line adjustments. Just my two cents.

    I agree with your statement. I am not confident that it happens much if any. Holdover can and does bite many high level grandmaster competitors. Those types train a lot more than most people. Defensive purposes are pretty high stake as you acknowledge.
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com


  5. #5
    Grandmaster chezuki's Avatar

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    Isn’t “holdover” already a solution to the “issue” of distance between bore and optic? Why do we need a more complicated solution to the already simple solution?
    If you’re free you’ll never see the walls.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tactically Fat View Post
    Listen to Rhino, Coach, NHT3, and as much as I hate to say it, Chezuki. :-)
    Mooresville #78 F. & A. M.

  6. #6
    Grandmaster Coach's Avatar

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    Because people screw ut up constantly.

    I think this idea has merit. You have a very visual point of reference when doing high stakes shooting. I would like to experiment with it.
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com


  7. #7
    Marksman rosejm's Avatar

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    If we just remove the sights altogether, this issue will be drastically reduced

  8. #8
    Grandmaster SmileDocHill's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1mil-high View Post
    In theory it will work, but it also over-complicates something that can easily be trained. Anyone who is going to use an AR platform rifle for defensive or similar use needs to have trained with it to a level that they are comfortable with their zero and sightline bore line adjustments. Just my two cents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    I agree with your statement. I am not confident that it happens much if any. Holdover can and does bite many high level grandmaster competitors. Those types train a lot more than most people. Defensive purposes are pretty high stake as you acknowledge.
    I'm interested in hearing from more experienced people than myself. What I have heard mimics both statements above, which can sound contradictory but reality isn't always that cut and dried.
    Larry Vickers mentioned in the carbine class that the hold over is something to overcome and causes problems even with highly trained and practiced war fighters and police. I think it would take use by a lot of professionals, for a lot of time, to see if this technique actually reduces bad shots due to failure to account for holdover when the stress is on.
    Taking a shot with irons or a single dot under stress can result in aiming and shooting without applying thought to considering offsets because the brain has trouble with higher functions in stress. I can see having 2 dots in the field of view causing the higher function part of the brain to wake up a little by having to at a minimum make a choice on which dot to use. This could help divert your attention to marksmanship principals and give you the reminder to split the difference between the dots.
    I'm not saying it is a bad idea. My limited understanding of psychology has me thinking it may have its merits though. Until it is "tested in the field" for some time it will all be predictions and conversation.
    Putting firearms' contribution back in our history makes a more complete telling. Teaching marksmanship in that context deepens the understanding. Revere's Riders, because history involved guns!

  9. #9
    Grandmaster SmileDocHill's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    Because people screw ut up constantly.

    I think this idea has merit. You have a very visual point of reference when doing high stakes shooting. I would like to experiment with it.
    I'm glad to see this is your position on this. It does seem weird at first and overly complicated but the more experienced the person is that I have heard from the more they mention it is still a problem. I don't think it is a solution looking for a problem. The problem is still there in real application, in spite of having fixes that work logically and even training.
    Putting firearms' contribution back in our history makes a more complete telling. Teaching marksmanship in that context deepens the understanding. Revere's Riders, because history involved guns!

  10. #10
    Grandmaster Coach's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileDocHill View Post
    I'm glad to see this is your position on this. It does seem weird at first and overly complicated but the more experienced the person is that I have heard from the more they mention it is still a problem. I don't think it is a solution looking for a problem. The problem is still there in real application, in spite of having fixes that work logically and even training.
    All of us can get excited and press a shot off without a proper sight picture. Ask me how I know. Normally this is just a matter of a poor score or lower placement which is not fatal. Not getting hold over right when the stakes are a family members life from across the room is a different beast completely.

    I think most of the time both would not be needed. But in the rare case where a high degree of precision is needed. This makes sense. Such a set up would tell me to a much higher degree of certainty where the point of impact is going to be. Dots and laser both require a target focus and so nothing is new in that department. I can visually confirm and adjust the sight picture and then put all my focus on achieving a surprise break of the trigger.

    We all know the mistakes on holdover are human error and should not happen with a high degree of training and practice, and yet it persists. There is a problem that exists and this option or solution seems to be with merit.

    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com


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