Competition vs Street Fighting

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  • Trapper Jim

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    Just to make something clear about Shooting Competitions and staying alive on the street. Many know that I urge all gunowners to shoot in some form of a match. There are many that do not require a fortune to get into. I tend to always refer new shooters to a Steel Match for simplicity in getting their feet wet. Having said this Competition is good for developing actual shooting skills but not so much in real tactics and the spontaneous conditions that you may meet on the street. Unfortunately there is no shooting games that I know of that can deal with this. Safety rules, range limitations etc just can not replicate staying alive on the street. I was shooting at Shaws Mid South one year and his shoot house came the closest I have seen for practice but I am sure there are many newer state of the art facilities available now for training. Even our DarkHouse at PASA works well. Having said this, I still believe that before one spends money, ammo and time on lots of street tactics, that he gets his marksmanship up to his personal best first. I have seen many students with the Tshirt but could not pass an eval in actually shooting. This is not on the instructor however but on the student for not following thru with the commitment to practice his new found information. I do not know any other way than trigger time and the shooting sports to accomplish this. Yes, there are training scars from competition but like callused hands, they make you stronger. I have attached a great article on this. Hope some will find it helpful.

    https://www.shootingwire.com/

    Trapper Jim
     

    Latewatch

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    When Jerry Barnhart first started teaching not named Military SOF units he was quick to mention that he had no Military or LE experience and knew nothing of tactics. He said, what I can do is teach you to shoot a handgun very fast and accurately and if you think that is something that can be a benefit to you then listen up.

    Jim Cirillo also stated many times the advantage that years of competition shooting gave him in his gunfights.

    Someone also said that no shooting competition is a gunfight but every gunfight is a shooting competition.

    Competition will not teach you gunfighting but it is an excellent tool to teach weapons manipulation along with speed and accuracy.

    I've been a Soldier or a Police Officer for almost 40 years and a competition shooter for almost as long. I wholeheartedly believe in the benefits of competition shooting in enhancing survivability in a gunfight.

    My .02
     

    gregkl

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    I'll read the article at lunch and may amend my comments I'm making now.

    I agree that basic marksmanship developed to a personal best is a key base to have.

    I also think shooting competitions is good to hone gun handling skills, tension caused by being watched by others, dealing with timer, etc.

    I don't buy into the idea that doing competitions will get you killed on the street. If I had to choose to having someone like Aron Bright or another competent shooter on my side during a street fight or some guy that just goes to the range to shoot a stationary piece of paper, I'd choose Aron every time.

    I am not yet shooting any competitions as I am still working on my basic marksmanship and getting familiar with my pistol. Hopefully if I make time to get to the range for the rest of this year, I will be ready to try some competition next year.
     

    rhino

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    When Jerry Barnhart first started teaching not named Military SOF units he was quick to mention that he had no Military or LE experience and knew nothing of tactics. He said, what I can do is teach you to shoot a handgun very fast and accurately and if you think that is something that can be a benefit to you then listen up.

    Jim Cirillo also stated many times the advantage that years of competition shooting gave him in his gunfights.

    Someone also said that no shooting competition is a gunfight but every gunfight is a shooting competition.

    Competition will not teach you gunfighting but it is an excellent tool to teach weapons manipulation along with speed and accuracy.

    I've been a Soldier or a Police Officer for almost 40 years and a competition shooter for almost as long. I wholeheartedly believe in the benefits of competition shooting in enhancing survivability in a gunfight.

    My .02

    I've never seen or heard it stated that way, but I like it! It's also the kind of competition in which second place is not almost as good as first place. The silver (or bronze) medal in a gunfight is usually awarded posthumously.


    I am not yet shooting any competitions as I am still working on my basic marksmanship and getting familiar with my pistol. Hopefully if I make time to get to the range for the rest of this year, I will be ready to try some competition next year.

    I hope you realize that shooting in competitions will help that! If you're not comfortable yet, that's fine, but if you can follow instructions and have safe gun handling skills, some shooting matches can only help you get better.
     

    gregkl

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    I hope you realize that shooting in competitions will help that! If you're not comfortable yet, that's fine, but if you can follow instructions and have safe gun handling skills, some shooting matches can only help you get better.

    Yup I know. I have been dealing with some eyesight issues for a few years now so when I go to the range I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get things lined up. It just takes practice. This is what I am working on right now. That and maintaining a front sight focus when I do find the front sight.:)

    Once I have dialed that in so it comes into view quickly I will try some competitions. I have shot a couple of steel challenges, IDPA and have taken several training classes but anything that requires even a modicum of speed has me just getting frustrated.

    I'll get there.
     

    Trapper Jim

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    When Jerry Barnhart first started teaching not named Military SOF units he was quick to mention that he had no Military or LE experience and knew nothing of tactics. He said, what I can do is teach you to shoot a handgun very fast and accurately and if you think that is something that can be a benefit to you then listen up.

    Jim Cirillo also stated many times the advantage that years of competition shooting gave him in his gunfights.

    Someone also said that no shooting competition is a gunfight but every gunfight is a shooting competition.

    Competition will not teach you gunfighting but it is an excellent tool to teach weapons manipulation along with speed and accuracy.

    I've been a Soldier or a Police Officer for almost 40 years and a competition shooter for almost as long. I wholeheartedly believe in the benefits of competition shooting in enhancing survivability in a gunfight.

    My .02


    On my squad with Barnhart at the Golden Eagle in Evansville a few years back, he referred to it as if you're going to be a lifeguard, you should know how to swim good. He said learn the fundamentals and then you can adapt it to any cause you want. Something I define in my training right up front. If we put the reason before the effort we miss being well rounded for everything.
     

    Scouse

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    I spent 20 plus years teaching people who carrid pistols as part of their employment. All from the holster. They needed my Diploma to get their License.

    That was in Canada. I also was a Board member of IALEFI (International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors) for twenty years. Now a US Citizen, living in Florida, my advice is quite simple. Same gun, same place, a spare magazine. Competition, join a Gun Club that shoots IDPA. Compete. Fun too.

    My fighting skills came from working in night clubs in the busy sea port City of Liverpool UK, for 5 years, 1960 to 1965.
    Got stabbed twice, working at the Cavern Club of Beatles fame. On Matheww Street. 1960 till 64. Fighting with fists/feet. and boots is good training as well!
     
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    cosermann

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    It's also the kind of competition in which second place is not almost as good as first place. ...

    In other words, "There is no second place winner in a gun fight." - Bill Jordan, No Second Place Winner, p101, 1965.
     

    churchmouse

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    I spent 20 plus years teaching people who carrid pistols as part of their employment. All from the holster. They needed my Diploma to get their License.

    That was in Canada. I also was a Board member of IDPA for twenty years. Now a US Citizen, living in Florida, my advice is quite simple. Same gun, same place, a spare magazine. Competition, join a Gun Club that shoots IDPA. Compete. Fun too.

    My fighting skills came from working in night clubs in the busy sea port City of Liverpool UK, for 5 years, 1960 to 1965.
    Got stabbed twice, working at the Cavern Club of Beatles fame. On Matheww Street. 1960 till 64. Fighting with fists/feet. and boots is good training as well!

    Being trained in the manly arts and being a street fighter gives one an edge. It really does.
     

    gregkl

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    Same gun, same place, a spare magazine. Competition, join a Gun Club that shoots IDPA. Compete. Fun too.

    This is my goal. I am thinning my "herd" to one pistol to do it all; range, home defense, carry, competition, training, not necessarily in that order.

    I will still own other handguns but I'm going to commit to one.
     

    rhino

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    Yup I know. I have been dealing with some eyesight issues for a few years now so when I go to the range I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get things lined up. It just takes practice. This is what I am working on right now. That and maintaining a front sight focus when I do find the front sight.:)

    Once I have dialed that in so it comes into view quickly I will try some competitions. I have shot a couple of steel challenges, IDPA and have taken several training classes but anything that requires even a modicum of speed has me just getting frustrated.

    I'll get there.

    I know you didn't ask for advice, but this is INGO, so . . . have you considered alternative sighting methods? Red dots, using the top of the slide, and Jim Cirrillo's "silhouette point" are a few options that can help accommodate vision issues when coupled with good trigger control.
     

    gregkl

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    I know you didn't ask for advice, but this is INGO, so . . . have you considered alternative sighting methods? Red dots, using the top of the slide, and Jim Cirrillo's "silhouette point" are a few options that can help accommodate vision issues when coupled with good trigger control.

    I am a member of INGO for the advice whether requested or not!:)

    I like red dots but I want to be able to shoot pistols with iron sights. All my rifles are scoped at this point. I sold my Garand and my M1 Carbine because I did not want to mount an optic on those.

    Shotguns I'm okay with wearing shooting glasses that blur my left eye (I'm cross dominant).

    Pistol is my only struggle at this point and I think I am getting closer. I am wearing blurred left lens with built in reader in the right lens to sharpen the front sight.

    Next I want to try monovision contacts and see if my brain will adjust. If this works, I will be the same whether at the range or not.

    I'm not familiar with the other sighting options you mentioned.

    I have thought about target focused shooting, but that seems to get poo-pooed by most everyone. Seems the mantra is "front sight focus".

    I have a red dot on my .22 pistol and it's fun and my wife really likes it. So much that I'm thinking of buying a nicer one for it. (current is a BSA cheapie)

    BTW, we have done a class together once. It was with Aron at the indoor range in Avon. But you were all the way to the left and I was almost all the way to the right so we didn't interact.
     

    nakinate

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    This is my goal. I am thinning my "herd" to one pistol to do it all; range, home defense, carry, competition, training, not necessarily in that order.

    I will still own other handguns but I'm going to commit to one.
    This is wise. I did that 3 years ago and started taking training more seriously. I’ve taken classes from world class trainers, shot matches, and shoot (mostly) weekly now. I’ve progressed a lot in that time span (I still have a long way to go). Focusing on one weapons system has helped tremendously.
     

    Sigblitz

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    I have a 1911 that shoots great. It has a red fiberoptic front sight and a blacked out rear.

    I need practice. After switching platforms to a better shooter, everything has to be relearned.

    Or I can just stick to the Glock I'm used to.
     

    cedartop

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    I don't see nearly the divide between the gamers and tactitards that we have in the past even as recently as 10 years ago. If I had to guess that is in large part due to all of the high profile ex spec ops guys who are now instructing that also espouse competition.
     

    rhino

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    I'm not familiar with the other sighting options you mentioned.

    I have thought about target focused shooting, but that seems to get poo-pooed by most everyone. Seems the mantra is "front sight focus".


    Conventional iron sights are just the most commonly used tool for verifying the alignment of the muzzle with the target. They have the advantage of allowing fairly precise shot placement, but the down side is that as we age or have other vision issues, it's tough to see the front sight properly at any speed.

    As long as you have good trigger control (i.e. you press the trigger and bullet leaves the barrel without significantly changing the alignment of the gun), it doesn't matter so much how to confirm alignment. For our purposes, it's very possible to learn to use the top of the slide as a sighting system. All you have to do is learn how the slide looks relative to where you want to hit the target, then consistently achieve the same visual information each time you need to fire a shot. Jim Cirrillo's method is similar and arose because he could no longer see the sights. He found that the back side of the gun (facing you) had a consistent outline when properly aligned with the target. By learning what the "silhouette" should be relative to the target, you can confirm alignment of the gun. Those are just two ways of achieving the same desired result that are less dependent on healthy, young eyes.



    BTW, we have done a class together once. It was with Aron at the indoor range in Avon. But you were all the way to the left and I was almost all the way to the right so we didn't interact.

    Uh-oh! Do I need to apologize for anything I said or did? I'm not well behaved in public.
     

    rhino

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    I don't see nearly the divide between the gamers and tactitards that we have in the past even as recently as 10 years ago. If I had to guess that is in large part due to all of the high profile ex spec ops guys who are now instructing that also espouse competition.

    I don't either.

    I used to get denigrated by "defensive training" only people for being a "competition shooter" and by other competition shooters for being a tactical tommy. That doesn't happen anymore, possibly because they learned that I suck at competition and it's not worth mentioning.

    Then there's also what you mentioned. I got a lot of people thinking in new directions just by mentioning that Larry Vicker's placed in the top ten at the USPSA Limited Nationals twice in the 1990s.
     
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