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  1. #1
    Sharpshooter Trapper Jim's Avatar

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    Competition vs Street Fighting

    Just to make something clear about Shooting Competitions and staying alive on the street. Many know that I urge all gunowners to shoot in some form of a match. There are many that do not require a fortune to get into. I tend to always refer new shooters to a Steel Match for simplicity in getting their feet wet. Having said this Competition is good for developing actual shooting skills but not so much in real tactics and the spontaneous conditions that you may meet on the street. Unfortunately there is no shooting games that I know of that can deal with this. Safety rules, range limitations etc just can not replicate staying alive on the street. I was shooting at Shaws Mid South one year and his shoot house came the closest I have seen for practice but I am sure there are many newer state of the art facilities available now for training. Even our DarkHouse at PASA works well. Having said this, I still believe that before one spends money, ammo and time on lots of street tactics, that he gets his marksmanship up to his personal best first. I have seen many students with the Tshirt but could not pass an eval in actually shooting. This is not on the instructor however but on the student for not following thru with the commitment to practice his new found information. I do not know any other way than trigger time and the shooting sports to accomplish this. Yes, there are training scars from competition but like callused hands, they make you stronger. I have attached a great article on this. Hope some will find it helpful.

    https://www.shootingwire.com/

    Trapper Jim
    "See you on the Range"

  2. #2
    Grandmaster Thor's Avatar

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    https://www.shootingwire.com/feature...e-894b84881bc8

    I think this is the link you wanted...good article.

    This is why when in the Army I preferred to be in my TANK! There were times I wasn't though...
    Thor himself has spoken, mere mortals must make it so. - bradmedic04

  3. #3
    Plinker Latewatch's Avatar

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    When Jerry Barnhart first started teaching not named Military SOF units he was quick to mention that he had no Military or LE experience and knew nothing of tactics. He said, what I can do is teach you to shoot a handgun very fast and accurately and if you think that is something that can be a benefit to you then listen up.

    Jim Cirillo also stated many times the advantage that years of competition shooting gave him in his gunfights.

    Someone also said that no shooting competition is a gunfight but every gunfight is a shooting competition.

    Competition will not teach you gunfighting but it is an excellent tool to teach weapons manipulation along with speed and accuracy.

    I've been a Soldier or a Police Officer for almost 40 years and a competition shooter for almost as long. I wholeheartedly believe in the benefits of competition shooting in enhancing survivability in a gunfight.

    My .02
    You must prepare your mind for where your body may have to go.

  4. #4
    Grandmaster gregkl's Avatar

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    I'll read the article at lunch and may amend my comments I'm making now.

    I agree that basic marksmanship developed to a personal best is a key base to have.

    I also think shooting competitions is good to hone gun handling skills, tension caused by being watched by others, dealing with timer, etc.

    I don't buy into the idea that doing competitions will get you killed on the street. If I had to choose to having someone like Aron Bright or another competent shooter on my side during a street fight or some guy that just goes to the range to shoot a stationary piece of paper, I'd choose Aron every time.

    I am not yet shooting any competitions as I am still working on my basic marksmanship and getting familiar with my pistol. Hopefully if I make time to get to the range for the rest of this year, I will be ready to try some competition next year.
    Outlier

  5. #5
    Grandmaster rhino's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Latewatch View Post
    When Jerry Barnhart first started teaching not named Military SOF units he was quick to mention that he had no Military or LE experience and knew nothing of tactics. He said, what I can do is teach you to shoot a handgun very fast and accurately and if you think that is something that can be a benefit to you then listen up.

    Jim Cirillo also stated many times the advantage that years of competition shooting gave him in his gunfights.

    Someone also said that no shooting competition is a gunfight but every gunfight is a shooting competition.

    Competition will not teach you gunfighting but it is an excellent tool to teach weapons manipulation along with speed and accuracy.

    I've been a Soldier or a Police Officer for almost 40 years and a competition shooter for almost as long. I wholeheartedly believe in the benefits of competition shooting in enhancing survivability in a gunfight.

    My .02
    I've never seen or heard it stated that way, but I like it! It's also the kind of competition in which second place is not almost as good as first place. The silver (or bronze) medal in a gunfight is usually awarded posthumously.


    Quote Originally Posted by gregkl View Post
    I am not yet shooting any competitions as I am still working on my basic marksmanship and getting familiar with my pistol. Hopefully if I make time to get to the range for the rest of this year, I will be ready to try some competition next year.
    I hope you realize that shooting in competitions will help that! If you're not comfortable yet, that's fine, but if you can follow instructions and have safe gun handling skills, some shooting matches can only help you get better.



    "The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State."
    INDIANA CONSTITUTION
    Article 1 - Bill of Rights - Section 32

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  6. #6
    Grandmaster gregkl's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino View Post




    I hope you realize that shooting in competitions will help that! If you're not comfortable yet, that's fine, but if you can follow instructions and have safe gun handling skills, some shooting matches can only help you get better.
    Yup I know. I have been dealing with some eyesight issues for a few years now so when I go to the range I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get things lined up. It just takes practice. This is what I am working on right now. That and maintaining a front sight focus when I do find the front sight.

    Once I have dialed that in so it comes into view quickly I will try some competitions. I have shot a couple of steel challenges, IDPA and have taken several training classes but anything that requires even a modicum of speed has me just getting frustrated.

    I'll get there.
    Outlier

  7. #7
    Sharpshooter Trapper Jim's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Latewatch View Post
    When Jerry Barnhart first started teaching not named Military SOF units he was quick to mention that he had no Military or LE experience and knew nothing of tactics. He said, what I can do is teach you to shoot a handgun very fast and accurately and if you think that is something that can be a benefit to you then listen up.

    Jim Cirillo also stated many times the advantage that years of competition shooting gave him in his gunfights.

    Someone also said that no shooting competition is a gunfight but every gunfight is a shooting competition.

    Competition will not teach you gunfighting but it is an excellent tool to teach weapons manipulation along with speed and accuracy.

    I've been a Soldier or a Police Officer for almost 40 years and a competition shooter for almost as long. I wholeheartedly believe in the benefits of competition shooting in enhancing survivability in a gunfight.

    My .02

    On my squad with Barnhart at the Golden Eagle in Evansville a few years back, he referred to it as if you're going to be a lifeguard, you should know how to swim good. He said learn the fundamentals and then you can adapt it to any cause you want. Something I define in my training right up front. If we put the reason before the effort we miss being well rounded for everything.
    "See you on the Range"

  8. #8
    Plinker

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    I spent 20 plus years teaching people who carrid pistols as part of their employment. All from the holster. They needed my Diploma to get their License.

    That was in Canada. I also was a Board member of IALEFI (International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors) for twenty years. Now a US Citizen, living in Florida, my advice is quite simple. Same gun, same place, a spare magazine. Competition, join a Gun Club that shoots IDPA. Compete. Fun too.

    My fighting skills came from working in night clubs in the busy sea port City of Liverpool UK, for 5 years, 1960 to 1965.
    Got stabbed twice, working at the Cavern Club of Beatles fame. On Matheww Street. 1960 till 64. Fighting with fists/feet. and boots is good training as well!
    Last edited by Scouse; 08-14-2019 at 12:43.

  9. #9
    Grandmaster cosermann's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino View Post
    It's also the kind of competition in which second place is not almost as good as first place. ...
    In other words, "There is no second place winner in a gun fight." - Bill Jordan, No Second Place Winner, p101, 1965.
    Nothing is everything, but everything is something. - Ayoob

  10. #10
    I still care....Really
    churchmouse's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse View Post
    I spent 20 plus years teaching people who carrid pistols as part of their employment. All from the holster. They needed my Diploma to get their License.

    That was in Canada. I also was a Board member of IDPA for twenty years. Now a US Citizen, living in Florida, my advice is quite simple. Same gun, same place, a spare magazine. Competition, join a Gun Club that shoots IDPA. Compete. Fun too.

    My fighting skills came from working in night clubs in the busy sea port City of Liverpool UK, for 5 years, 1960 to 1965.
    Got stabbed twice, working at the Cavern Club of Beatles fame. On Matheww Street. 1960 till 64. Fighting with fists/feet. and boots is good training as well!
    Being trained in the manly arts and being a street fighter gives one an edge. It really does.

    AKA..Thor. Odin son. God of thunder.
    But you can call me John.....Force.

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