Training AR for instructors? What are the options?

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  • SmileDocHill

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    I'd like an AR that is functional for manipulation drills, malfunction drills, demonstrations, and teaching but not capable of firing. I've used an airsoft gun at carbine clinics but is limited in use to demonstrating basic gun handling skills.

    I like what Yeager had in video posted up by Bwframe but I don't know if that is a commercial thing or if he simply removed the firing pin from an AR and painted it.

    A blue gun is expensive and noting moves.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Experience?

    Here is bw's thread.
    https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/long-guns/472600-yeager-ar-15-malfunctions.html

    The video with the AR I'm talking about.

    https://youtu.be/d2tJA7KyUHI
     

    SmileDocHill

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    The video so it isn't on the first post which messes up the ability to see the post.


    [video=youtube_share;d2tJA7KyUHI]http://youtu.be/d2tJA7KyUHI[/video]
     

    obijohn

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    I use a blue gun and a gutted airsoft gun that Rhino modified. The airsoft rifle is clear. Between the two, there is never a chance to mistake either as a functioning weapon.
     

    rhino

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    I'd like an AR that is functional for manipulation drills, malfunction drills, demonstrations, and teaching but not capable of firing. I've used an airsoft gun at carbine clinics but is limited in use to demonstrating basic gun handling skills.

    I like what Yeager had in video posted up by Bwframe but I don't know if that is a commercial thing or if he simply removed the firing pin from an AR and painted it.

    A blue gun is expensive and noting moves.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Experience?

    Here is bw's thread.
    https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/long-guns/472600-yeager-ar-15-malfunctions.html

    The video with the AR I'm talking about.

    https://youtu.be/d2tJA7KyUHI


    Whether something like what Yeager has is commercially available or home grown, it's not going to be a small investment. It's a cool idea and I see the utility, but I don't think it's worth the investment just for the few things that you can't do with deactivated airsoft replicas ("bull**** guns," as they were labeled by the late Louis Awerbuck).

    If cost isn't an issue, then rendering the bolt inert and slugging the bore past the chamber on a real rifle followed by painting and labeling would probably work really well, or better yet, an inert bolt carrier group and a dummy barrel that only has a chamber and no bore. Ideally, I'd prefer something with a magwell and magazines that are slightly small than an AR to prevent insertion of live ammo. You'd need custom dummy rounds to match, but cost isn't an issue in my thought experiment.


    I use a blue gun and a gutted airsoft gun that Rhino modified. The airsoft rifle is clear. Between the two, there is never a chance to mistake either as a functioning weapon.

    I wondered what happened to those! Now I remember!
     

    Trapper Jim

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    I use a blue gun and a gutted airsoft gun that Rhino modified. The airsoft rifle is clear. Between the two, there is never a chance to mistake either as a functioning weapon.


    not a big fan of Blue guns or other toys. I have seen them misused more than once.
     

    OneBadV8

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    Did those allow chambering a round? If so . . .

    I don't think so because I believe you run that bungee thingy (techincal term) down the barrel. Although I guess if you didn't do that part, then maybe?

    Could probably 3d print a BCG with a hollowed out bolt with just enough to chamber a round but nothing behind it. I guess it'd be hard to run malfunctions possibly without chambering a dummy round
     

    bwframe

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    not a big fan of Blue guns or other toys. I have seen them misused more than once.

    I have seen that addressed as a training issue. A dedicated training tool should be handled as if it was a firearm, yet clearly incapable of being one. Only to be pointed at things appropriate for training proposes.

    Tools for training are just that, not for horseplay or humor. There are no toys in this context. Instructors need to police this.
     
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    Trapper Jim

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    I have seen that addressed as a training issue. A dedicated training tool should be handled as if it was a firearm, yet clearly incapable of being one. Only to be pointed at things appropriate for training proposes.

    Tools for training are just that, not for horseplay or humor. There are no toys in this context. Instructors need to police this.

    Correct. I have seen inert guns along with real ones mishandled by locals and big names alike. The toy guns encourage mishandling by instructors and students. Kinda like...but it ain’t loooooaded. My take has always been Those that use a toy in class are more likely to handle it carelessly. On the other hand I am glad some instructors use them as it guards against a real danger from an inert instructor.



    2cents
     

    teddy12b

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    For whatever my two cents is worth......

    I've used airsoft rifles, propper sim bolt carrier replacements with paint marker rounds, S&W M&P22lr's, blanks with firing adapters, and finally just some good old fashioned dummy rounds. In my opinion they all have a place and it depends on what you want to do. For example, if you teaching gun handling to rookies I'd lean towards an all blue plastic gun and explain we treat it as though it's 100% real. If you're dealing with people who are professional LEO/MIL types the sim rounds after a BCG swap are pretty hard to beat. If you're really wanting to show people the manipulation of the weapon without the worry of the gun going pull the firing pin and show them that you've done it and what that means. I'd like to hear what you settle in on with this topic.
     

    churchmouse

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    The firing pin holds the bolt cam pin in the bolt. It has to be in place.
    Take a pin and trim it well back so it can in no way hit the primer. Basically neutering the BCG. I have one set up like that for testing.
    I do the same with 1911's.
     

    JollyMon

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    I have seen that addressed as a training issue. A dedicated training tool should be handled as if it was a firearm, yet clearly incapable of being one. Only to be pointed at things appropriate for training proposes.

    Tools for training are just that, not for horseplay or humor. There are no toys in this context. Instructors need to police this.

    wait an inert chunk of plastic has to be handled the same way as a functioning firearm. Give me a f’in break. Next your going to say training knives have no purpose.

    How do dojo’s teach disarming or other techniques. Or how to not flag when in environments. A piece of plastic is no different then me pointing a finger at you.

    To me the the problem is with you not the blue
    gun.
     

    Trapper Jim

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    wait an inert chunk of plastic has to be handled the same way as a functioning firearm. Give me a f’in break. Next your going to say training knives have no purpose.

    How do dojo’s teach disarming or other techniques. Or how to not flag when in environments. A piece of plastic is no different then me pointing a finger at you.

    To me the the problem is with you not the blue
    gun.


    Well then. Tell that to all the dead and wounded in training exercises and Hollywood stuntmen. Simulation has killed in a roundabout way. Sorry but I will only use real guns. real ammo with real people and handle professionally thank you with out the urge to even point my finger at someone unless i intend to intimidate. When cleaning or gunsmithing I handle the stripped frame professionally as well. This is For all the weak hand holed striker fired pistol owners who thought their plastic was unloaded as well. Now understand, this is just me and for my fundamental, competition or defense training only. I can only promote what I do. I do realize there is a place for working props in advanced combat training, but there are injuries and deaths in these applications as well.
     

    Vigilant

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    Well then. Tell that to all the dead and wounded in training exercises and Hollywood stuntmen. Simulation has killed in a roundabout way. Sorry but I will only use real guns. real ammo with real people and handle professionally thank you with out the urge to even point my finger at someone unless i intend to intimidate. When cleaning or gunsmithing I handle the stripped frame professionally as well. This is For all the weak hand holed striker fired pistol owners who thought their plastic was unloaded as well. Now understand, this is just me and for my fundamental, competition or defense training only. I can only promote what I do. I do realize there is a place for working props in advanced combat training, but there are injuries and deaths in these applications as well.
    Whew, I’ll bet a FoF class with live ammo would be fun!?
     

    JollyMon

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    Whew, I’ll bet a FoF class with live ammo would be fun!?

    Exactly

    Only real guns and real ammo. So we can chalk up another one that has no fof or scenario based training.... or paintball ... or nerf... or shot a rubberband gun... much less those bug-a-salt guns... or even a SIRT... garrrrr .... but a chunk of plastic is so bad... better not point that remote at the tv because you might destroy it

    hiw many of those “Hollywood stunt men” died from a blue gun? I’ll wait.
     

    Trapper Jim

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    Exactly

    Only real guns and real ammo. So we can chalk up another one that has no fof or scenario based training.... or paintball ... or nerf... or shot a rubberband gun... much less those bug-a-salt guns... or even a SIRT... garrrrr .... but a chunk of plastic is so bad... better not point that remote at the tv because you might destroy it

    hiw many of those “Hollywood stunt men” died from a blue gun? I’ll wait.

    you might have to check with Rambo or perhaps Dragons and Dungeons could help.
     

    JollyMon

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    you might have to check with Rambo or perhaps Dragons and Dungeons could help.

    Better watch out for those kids playing cowboy and Indians... pointing sticks is a sure fire way to catch a bullet

    gosh I can’t believe we have to have these conversations... blue guns were specifically invented to be used in such a way.... they are inert. In no way can they hurt you... unless they are thrown.
     
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