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  • ECS686

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    Seems a touch hypocritical for guy who makes a living teaching “tactical” stuff!

    Shootrite Firearms Academy

    BTW
    Appears to have no real world experience?

    I didn't take it like that at at all. I get teaching something "tactical" if it applies. But to me there's a difference between someone that kicks in doors for bad guys and one for say a trip to town to get milk. (not saying LE is better or worse just as a civilian your not doing Military offensive operations or chasing down guys like the punisher). I believe that was what he was referring to. The "Tactical" atmosphere is more Into gear and ballistic masturbation and accuracy by volume than real world civilian shooting having less than a magazine used.
     

    Trapper Jim

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    I didn't take it like that at at all. I get teaching something "tactical" if it applies. But to me there's a difference between someone that kicks in doors for bad guys and one for say a trip to town to get milk. (not saying LE is better or worse just as a civilian your not doing Military offensive operations or chasing down guys like the punisher). I believe that was what he was referring to. The "Tactical" atmosphere is more Into gear and ballistic masturbation and accuracy by volume than real world civilian shooting having less than a magazine used.


    Yep.This. Concentrating on any and everything tactical before mastering your personal best shooting ability is like trying to put a roof on a house that you haven't built yet. Not that there is a lot of good products out there to enhance our structure but they are all are ability driven accessories. Bring them on as you improve to each level and adapt the tactics needed to train and win the fight. To blindly buy into the latest gizmos just because some Merchant needs to make his mortgage payment may not be prudent.
     

    Usmccookie

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    Interesting, read. I have to agree with my own spin on it of course. A civilians first duty is to their family. So to me, self defense techniques are paramount. Practice with your edc and leave the plates at home. 2nd, practice with your home defense rifle/ shotgun. Then 3rd would be the offensive tactics. These to me are representative of the 2a. Protect your family and self, your home and finally against exterior threats foreign and domestic. To concentrate solely on tacticool stuff is neglecting you primary duties to your family. That being said, offensive tactical training has a very real yet passive place in the hierarchy of training.
    3 gun, steel challenge, etc are just games and measures of your skills. But raceguns, to me, have no place in our needs.
     

    Brad69

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    I have no idea what you mean by accuracy by firepower or gear oriented classes?

    Basic marksmanship is a given most require prerequisite classes or experience in addition if you cannot shoot or are not safe you will not train. I have never attended a class where accurate fire was not required. I have witnessed training videos on the YouTube were they are basically running around shooting and not even caring if they hit a target.
    While the average guy doesn’t need to clear rooms as a team or enter a shoot house as a team that training is normally reserved for people that need it I cannot think of a average guy that has trained at that level.
    Tactical train skills prepare you for that “trip to Walmart” or defensive incident if the training is with a competent instructor and you have mastered the basic skills first. Don’t believe the hype of backing away from a fight will save you a aggressive male might take backing away as a weakness and strike. Avoiding a fight is important if possible some of his theory on verbal avoidance is not realistic IMO.
    While many “Tactical Timmy’s” are out in the training arena I am selective with my training money and time.

    1. Does the instructor have demonstrated ability?
    Career Mil/LEO, Competition shooter it’s hard for me to accept a persons ability without proof.

    2. Reviews both word of mouth and written.

    The guy that wrote the article runs a “tactical” training company it seems a little silly to say one thing and do another?
    Here is the equipment listings for his classes do you see lever action rifle on the list?
    Shootrite Equipment Requirements

    This dudes not like Trapper Jim he really would show up with a six shooter and a lever action wearing a coon skin cap!
     

    ECS686

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    I have no idea what you mean by accuracy by firepower or gear oriented classes?

    Basic marksmanship is a given most require prerequisite classes or experience in addition if you cannot shoot or are not safe you will not train. I have never attended a class where accurate fire was not required. I have witnessed training videos on the YouTube were they are basically running around shooting and not even caring if they hit a target.
    While the average guy doesn’t need to clear rooms as a team or enter a shoot house as a team that training is normally reserved for people that need it I cannot think of a average guy that has trained at that level.
    Tactical train skills prepare you for that “trip to Walmart” or defensive incident if the training is with a competent instructor and you have mastered the basic skills first. Don’t believe the hype of backing away from a fight will save you a aggressive male might take backing away as a weakness and strike. Avoiding a fight is important if possible some of his theory on verbal avoidance is not realistic IMO.
    While many “Tactical Timmy’s” are out in the training arena I am selective with my training money and time.

    1. Does the instructor have demonstrated ability?
    Career Mil/LEO, Competition shooter it’s hard for me to accept a persons ability without proof.

    2. Reviews both word of mouth and written.

    The guy that wrote the article runs a “tactical” training company it seems a little silly to say one thing and do another?
    Here is the equipment listings for his classes do you see lever action rifle on the list?
    Shootrite Equipment Requirements

    This dudes not like Trapper Jim he really would show up with a six shooter and a lever action wearing a coon skin cap!

    You have "average guys" (that have never been vouched by Cooper, Smith and the like which are the exception) trying to teach Military and building entry

    Even saw one pushing a Hostage rescue scenario with their handgun classes. Along with film of those pre diabetic waistline types deploying out of perfectly running vehicles to engage "threats" 200 yards away transitioned to a handgun for one right there then jumping into car and driving off. (explain those actions if you found yourself in a court room) Was confused if it was a 3 gun stage or fantasy camp. Stuff about that nonsense was my take that the article hit on.

    As far as accuracy by fire I have seen it where mag dump after mag dump is almost conditioned They want to Bedazzle the attendants or something.To the point. I'm like running a handgun like a minigun is never a good option.

    Everyone can do what th hey like but, Even Federal 1811 Criminal investigators, State Troopers a d most LE don't go rolling around off duty in full kit. Spare mag or 2 and they're good.
     

    2A_Tom

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    I thought the article was right on. That the author runs a school with Tactical in its name bothers me, not. I hope he is teaching in his school what he wrote here.
     

    Brad69

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    BF that’s my point the dude is teaching room clearing, carbine, vehicle stuff the writes a story against what he does for a living!

    If Trapper Jim wrote the article I would be like right on he practices what he preaches this guy not so much.

    I have witnessed some of the over the top training talked about on the YouTube’s IMO it’s from crappy trainers that are over the top to begin with.

    BTW
    I wonder if I did a training course with airborne operations how many people would wanna do it?

    BF you want a spot on the manifest? You can go out the door last?
     

    ECS686

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    BF that’s my point the dude is teaching room clearing, carbine, vehicle stuff the writes a story against what he does for a living!

    If Trapper Jim wrote the article I would be like right on he practices what he preaches this guy not so much.

    I have witnessed some of the over the top training talked about on the YouTube’s IMO it’s from crappy trainers that are over the top to begin with.

    BTW
    I wonder if I did a training course with airborne operations how many people would wanna do it?

    BF you want a spot on the manifest? You can go out the door last?

    I believe that your taking it the wrong way. nobody is spouting anything just facts on a civilian self defense shooting. Clint Smith teaches advanced classes however he even admits he gets the most joy and satisfaction teaching classes for Mothers and Gramdmothers on how to successfully defend herself with a revolver.

    As I mention one might or might not agree but my point and why I posted it is I believe the current crop of wanna be instructors (many self titled) are way to Into doomsday John Wick battle rattle that what most mere mortals would ever need.

    Because he has a side gig of writing or teaching something else doesn't take away that most self protection incidents go down as the article implies.
     

    2A_Tom

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    I want to be jumping JM or the door position in a C-130.

    I may not be able to make it off the DZ without my walker.
     

    2A_Tom

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    I would like to take Clint Smith's sniper course, just for the fun of it.
     

    jsharmon7

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    I enjoyed this article. I’m always wary when I see articles like this because of the old guy luddites who think it’s cool to be uncool. I think he made some good points that an actual self-defense situation will probably be different than some might expect. I have no problem with battle belts and such if that makes training more efficient, but understand you won’t be rolling through your subdivision battling Russians in your cool gear.
     

    2A_Tom

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    If you set up that jump, I would prefer a T-10 or MC1-1 I don't like the look of the descent of those new T-11's.

    If I was jumping a WIEC bag with a mortar it would be OK. With individual equipment I would prefer 32 FPS.
     

    Tactically Fat

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    As an average guy, what I look for in training classes should apply to ME and my life. Building clearing and any kind of high speed low drag vehicle stuff really doesn't apply. It may very well be fun, though. And those are the kinds of classes one should take when the basics are mastered.
     

    cedartop

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    I enjoyed this article. I’m always wary when I see articles like this because of the old guy luddites who think it’s cool to be uncool. I think he made some good points that an actual self-defense situation will probably be different than some might expect. I have no problem with battle belts and such if that makes training more efficient, but understand you won’t be rolling through your subdivision battling Russians in your cool gear.


    Bingo. And that is exactly what I think of when I think of Tiger Mckee and some others. If that picture is his ideal carry gear, why does his school have a signature model AR?
     

    GIJEW

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    I agree with the theme of the article but I think he tried too hard to create a firewall between civilian self defense and the professionals.

    While they shouldn't the focus of training for most of us, familiarity with "tactical" gear and small unit tactics can be relevant to coping with rare, but possible, situations from riots, WROL apocalypse, G-d forbid fighting tyranny.

    My biggest problem is with his assertion that we need to shoot-to-stop, not to kill. He acknowledged that center mass hits can likely kill the assailant, but that's not his agenda. I recall my captain getting in my face and telling that "it's not enough to shoot the targets, you have to attack the targets with murder in your eyes!". Before anyone dismisses that as the void between offensive MIL tactics and civilian SD, I think this is worth a 2nd look.

    The difference between the fight vs flight reflexes isn't measured in adrenaline but aggression. When faced by a sociopath with no hesitation about killing you, There's no room for ambivilance about killing him first. IMO the appropriate response should be "I am going to destroy/kill the threat/assailant ASAP if not sooner (because my life depends on it)". That doesn't shut the door on holding one's fire because the assailant ran away and there's no more threat. What it does do, is prevent you from hesitating because your subconsious said "but he's not a paper target. this is live fire for real this time?".
    The mantra of "shoot to stop, not to kill" sounds to me like a lawyer's disclaimer or "I didn't want to kill him but he made me". Well yeah, violence is trouble and who would choose that? And just how do you stop an assailant with a LETHAL weapon anyway?
     

    Randy Harris

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    Well like Huey Lewis said..."It's hip to be square".... and now it is cool to be uncool (And at that CedarTop groans)

    My unsolicited thoughts....(well actually CedarTop solicited them) ..... The best most succinct quote I have ever heard on this subject is Craig Douglas (Southnarc) when he said in reference to people's training priorities... "If you can't keep the average dude from raping you in the shower then a carbine course is the last thing you need". Think about that for a second. I know some guys who have taken multiple rifle classes from multiple instructors but they have yet to take a single pistol class from ANYONE other than their state mandated safety class to get a permit. They carry pistols somewhat regularly yet 100% of their training time has been devoted to using a weapon that they are unlikely to even have available if they were to need a gun in public. Skewed priorities.

    Having said that it is still a free country (at least until the dems win in 2020) and you are free to spend your training $$$ any way you choose. But I would argue that if you have not taken a class that helps you deal with unknown persons approaching you on the street then that is a huge hole in your training. If you have not taken AT LEAST a good solid basic defensive/combative/practical/whatever you want to call it handgun class from a reputable instructor (who can actually shoot) then that is a serious hole in your training. If you have no training in a street practical martial art or combatives then that is also a hole in your training. And if you have not been exposed to any trauma care (not surgery, but just keeping trauma victims from bleeding out before EMS can get there) then that is yet ANOTHER hole . And if you have not taken a Force on Force class where you get to work against real living breathing adversaries then that is a huge hole in your training. Those are the things that the typical civilian who wants to be reasonably well prepared for dealing with criminal assault in the 21st century NEEDS to be familiar with. My opinion and you are free to disagree but almost no one will take you seriously.

    AFTER that a good solid fundamental fighting rifle class taught by someone who actually knows the difference between kicking doors with Delta in Mosul or with SWAT in Miami and defending the homestead against a burglar or home invasion in Muncie Indiana and who can filter what is actually useful to the students would be a logical next step. Again this is all geared toward building the 20% of skills that will cover 80% of likely situations....not toward attending multiple classes for "entertrainment". Not everyone is interested in realism or in building and maintaining competency . There is actually a subset of folks who take numerous "tactical" classes for "entertainment". While it is certainly entertaining and educational to take building clearing classes with former delta/seal/ranger/whatever it really takes a clued in student to realize that what they are doing might not have much to do with civilian world USA. As I once said..."When Delta Operators in full kit start getting jacked at ATMs then I'll start worrying about what they carry".

    As to kit. What should you use in rifle class? It's a free country and you don't answer to me. For most "non sworn" civilians a bag or your pockets is far more likely to be used than a chest rig/plate carrier/battle belt to answer the bump in the night. In fact the plate carrier/battle belt set up is really at its best in a "proactive" situation where you expect something to happen or you are going and DOING something and that is really a very narrow niche in law abiding civilian America. We are talking about "natural disaster " or "civilian unrest" scenarios. So while that stuff is really unlikely to come into play for the guy who hears his door getting kicked in it is not a bad idea to at least work with that gear either in a class or on your own to see just how it effects everything you do and see how long it REALLY takes to get it all on. Also HOW MANY mags do you REALLY think you are going to need.... remember...if you empty ONE 30rd centerfire rifle magazine then you are going to be on the news...if you empty TWO then you are going to be in the encyclopedia.

    So where does that leave us? Are rifle classes useless? No, not at all. You just need to ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish. If you are doing it for entertainment then rock on! If you are doing it to go meet and hang out with your hero then rock on! If you are doing it to broaden your already wide knowledge base then rock on. If you are doing it to learn practical skills that you might actually find useful in civilian world USA in case of home invasion , burglary or civil unrest then you might want to be sure you apply that filter to all the techniques shown and also filter it through the civilian rules of engagement and maybe even ask the instructor in private how what he teaches from Delta/Seal world will apply to your own personal situation. Don't "call him out" in front of class, just sincerely ask him in private and he should (hopefully)be able to tell you....

    As to the pile of "pre modern" guns in the original article...Tiger McKee carries (or at least used to) a 1911 and is a big proponent of the AR. I get what he is saying , but it can come across as a little hypocritical. As to myself? I've been teaching in one capacity or another for one organization or another for the last 20 years. I do teach rifle classes and I recommend that the student determine before hand why they are doing the class and what they are expecting to get out of it. I have taught grandmas and I have taught Green Berets. I've taught SWAT guys, DHS instructors and I have taught Walmart stock guys. I have had 3 gun guys come to class to get work on contorted position shooting and running their match gun under less than ideal circumstances. I am a big proponent of CONTEXT. Filter all you learn through your own situation and keep what is useful and discard what is not. For MOST people a 2000 rd Delta/SAS/SEAL building clearing team rifle class that REQUIRES a plate carrier is certainly entertaining but is probably not the best use of their time if they are looking to devote some training time to skills they are likely to use.

    But again it is America , and folks are free to spend their money how they want (at least until the dems win in 2020) so if folks want to spend money on things they are never going to do or use for the sake of entertainment who am I to stop them?
     
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