AAR: Tony Cowden’s Pistol Class

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  • stoneytoney

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 17, 2014
    170
    18
    indy
    Instructor background: Military...trained under Mike Panone of CTT Solutions. Competes in USPSA and 3 gun as well. Found him on Instagram and followed him because Lucas Botkin of TREX Arms started shooting with him and having conversations about the 2A. There is some commotion in the USPSA right now because Tony Cowden was accused of cheating but then was cleared by the board but a shooter named Ben Stoeger didn’t let up so easy and started putting out emails and Facebook messages and posts supporting the fact that Tony did cheat! Most of his scores for classifieds are re-shoots from what he’s saying and other people are saying he just simply edited his score. He threw a couple of matches at his home range, and is accused of putting in his own score. I really don’t know how to feel about the situation.

    Location: Impact Shooting Center in Cleves, OH (1hr 1/2 drive from Indianapolis)

    Class needs: 800 rounds (shot more like 500) I shot Fed brass and Alum.

    2 mag pouches

    Eye and ear pro

    4 mags

    My setup: M&P9 2.0 Full size BONE STOCK

    (1) OEM mag + (3) ETS M&P mags (ran great! BTW. Pick some up for training purposes at least, I know I’ll be ordering more soon)

    (1) Blackhawk Mag Pouch

    (1) Tier 1 Concealed mag pouch I took off my Axis Elite holster

    Parabellum Gun Range IWB holster.

    Kore Essentials Leather Belt (have had it for a year with multiple pistol classes matches and a rifle class) I LOVE THIS THING




    This was his biggest open enrollment class so far. Before he could close registration; 15 of us had signed up. The weather was chilly. Not quite winter cold? If that makes sense. I wore a Carhartt hoody and a Colombia shell on top. When the sun came out I took the Colombia off. We started with introductions just to know who we were going to be sharing the line with for the next 8hrs. Everybody there were SHOOTERS. That’s why he said we didn’t shoot the whole 800 because newer shooters needs those extra rounds to get the fundamentals down, everybody was pretty much squared away on that though. We talked about drawing the pistol and some methods on OWB and IWB. I was drawing from concealment and having 2 layers on slowed down my draw considerable. I know next time I’ll be using a OWB setup because drawing from IWB and drawing from OWB. Will not harm your “muscle memory” that much where you have to spend a lot of time on either one. Point A is the gun in holster Point B is the marriage of both hands (your support hand is sitting your chest waiting for your firing hand to bring the gun to the “marriage zone”) Point C is the target itself. He made it where A and B were pretty much seamless. As soon as that gun leaves that holster get your support hand on it as quick as possible without having your hand sitting on your chest. This method was only used for new shooters to prevent them from shooting themselves in the support hand while drawing.

    Next we got into transitions...near to far...far to near...side by side. As everybody SHOULD know. Eyes lead the gun, and the sights tell all. But there’s also throttle control involved in transitions. You wouldn’t shoot a 5yd target the same as an 10-15-or 25yd shot. 5yd is simply gripping that damn gun and smashing the trigger. Point shooting. 10 and 15 involves more thought on the trigger and sights. 25 you want to go back to that shot “surprising you” like they taught you in those intro classes.

    The most important thing that I got was his prep...sights...press method. From compressed ready, push the pistol out and while doing that PREP THE TRIGGER. Then SEE THE SIGHTS and then PRESS THE TRIGGER. His thought process is you want that trigger ready to go so as soon you lock on target your break that shot IMMEDIATELY And you want to get back to that wall as quickly as possible. DO NOT HOLD THE TRIGGER BACK DOING RECOIL like they teach you in beginners class. YOU WANT TO MANIPULATE THE TRIGGER DURING RECOIL. When done correctly your gun will do a 2 shot BOP BOP with a crazy split time. This is how Jerry Miculeck shoots, pretty much manually bump firing the gun. Adding this method to transitions is like a whole ‘nother level of shooting I didn’t know was there.

    Finished around 6:00 and if it wasn’t for us fighting daylight we would’ve still been out there shooting and probably would have used all 800 rounds. Did our own group AAR and headed home.

    Would I go back? HELL YES! When he does DEMO. he makes it look effortless. He points out your problem...tells you how to fix or it improve it. With lightbulbs following right after. Hopefully he does a rifle and pistol 2 day.
    9f943169d03934351a69efef3f3e8b80.jpg
     
    Last edited:

    Trapper Jim

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
    2,676
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    Arcadia
    Instructor background: Military...trained under Mike Panone of CTT Solutions. Competes in USPSA and 3 gun as well. Found him on Instagram and followed him because Lucas Botkin of TREX Arms started shooting with him and having conversations about the 2A. There is some commotion in the USPSA right now because Tony Cowden was accused of cheating but then was cleared by the board but a shooter named Ben Stoeger didn’t let up so easy and started putting out emails and Facebook messages and posts supporting the fact that Tony did cheat! Most of his scores for classifieds are re-shoots from what he’s saying and other people are saying he just simply edited his score. He threw a couple of matches at his home range, and is accused of putting in his own score. I really don’t know to feel about the situation.

    Location: Impact Shooting Center in Cleves, OH (1hr 1/2 drive from Indianapolis)

    Class needs: 1k rounds (shot more like 500) I shot Fed brass and Alum.

    2 mag pouches

    Eye and ear pro

    4 mags

    My setup: M&P9 2.0 Full size BONE STOCK

    (1) OEM mag + (3) ETS M&P mags (ran great! BTW. Pick some up for training purposes at least, I know I’ll be ordering more soon)

    (1) Blackhawk Mag Pouch

    (1) Tier 1 Concealed mag pouch I took off my Axis Elite holster

    Parabellum Gun Range IWB holster.




    This was his biggest open enrollment class so far. Before he could close registration; 15 of us had signed up. The weather was chilly. Not quite winter cold? If that makes sense. I wore a Carhartt hoody and a Colombia shell on top. When the sun came out I took the Colombia off. We started with introductions just to know who we were going to be sharing the line with for the next 8hrs. Everybody there were SHOOTERS. That’s why he said we didn’t shoot the whole 800 because newer shooters needs those extra rounds to get the fundamentals down, everybody was pretty much squared away on that though. We talked about drawing the pistol and some methods on OWB and IWB. I was drawing from concealment and having 2 layers on slowed down my draw considerable. I know next time I’ll be using a OWB setup because drawing from IWB and drawing from OWB. Will not harm your “muscle memory” that much where you have to spend a lot of time on either one. Point A is the gun in holster Point B is the marriage of both hands (your support hand is sitting your chest waiting for your firing hand to bring the gun to the “marriage zone”) Point C is the target itself. He made it where A and B were pretty much seamless. As soon as that gun leaves that holster get your support hand on it as quick as possible without having your hand sitting on your chest. This method was only used for new shooters to prevent them from shooting themselves in the support hand while drawing.

    Next we got into transitions...near to far...far to near...side by side. As everybody SHOULD know. Eyes lead the gun, and the sights tell all. But there’s also throttle control involved in transitions. You wouldn’t shoot a 5yd target the same as an 10-15-or 25yd shot. 5yd is simply gripping that damn gun and smashing the trigger. Point shooting. 10 and 15 involves more thought on the trigger and sights. 25 you want to go back to that shot “surprising you” like they taught you in those intro classes.

    The most important thing that I got was his prep...sights...press method. From compressed ready, push the pistol out and while doing that PREP THE TRIGGER. Then SEE THE SIGHTS and then PRESS THE TRIGGER. His thought process is you want that trigger ready to go so as soon you lock on target your break that shot IMMEDIATELY And you want to get back to that wall as quickly as possible. DO NOT HOLD THE TRIGGER BACK DOING RECOIL like they teach you in beginners class. YOU WANT TO MANIPULATE THE TRIGGER DURING RECOIL. When done correctly your gun will do a 2 shot BOP BOP with a crazy split time. This is how Jerry Miculeck shoots, pretty much manually bump firing the gun. Adding this method to transitions is like a whole ‘nother level of shooting I didn’t know was there.

    Finished around 6:00 and if it wasn’t for us fighting daylight we would’ve still been out there shooting and probably would have used all 1k rounds. Did our own group AAR and headed home.

    Would I go back? HELL YES! Hopefully he does a rifle and pistol 2 day.
    9f943169d03934351a69efef3f3e8b80.jpg

    interesting stance.
     

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    stoneytoney

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 17, 2014
    170
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    indy
    @TrapperJim: Left foot forward...right is back. Fighting stance. Caught me doing wide transitions where you’re twisting at the hips.
     

    stoneytoney

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 17, 2014
    170
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    indy
    Hmmm...Seems like I just wasted 30min typing up a report. I should’ve just posted a pic of my stance I did all day! I doubt you’ll have triangle or weaver stance when you’re actually fighting for your life. The stance you speak of is just for the ABC of Shooting with beginners. You can stand like a flamingo and shoot out to 50 no problem.

    How do I shoot on the move?

    How would I get off the X and put rounds on target fast?

    How do I shoot in and around vehicles?

    Barricade work?

    What’s that position you shoot from while laying on your back? Supine? Because as you know it’s not a matter of IF you get on the ground in a fight...it’s WHEN.

    Put the sights on target and don’t move the gun while pressing the trigger. Simple
     
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    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Hmmm...Seems like I just wasted 30min typing up a report. I should’ve just posted a pic of my stance I did all day! I doubt you’ll have triangle or weaver stance when you’re actually fighting for your life. The stance you speak of is just for the ABC of Shooting with beginners. You can stand like a flamingo and shoot out to 50 no problem.

    How do I shoot on the move?

    How would I get off the X and put rounds on target fast?

    How do I shoot in and around vehicles?

    Barricade work?

    Put the sights on target and don’t move the gun while pressing the trigger. Simple

    I am sure their will be other points when I get a chance to fully digest the AAR. Thanks for posting it. I enjoy reading them especially when it is about someone who is new to me. I have trained with Pannone a couple of times so there will probably be a lot of familiar points.
     

    Vigilant

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Jul 12, 2008
    11,659
    83
    Plainfield
    Hmmm...Seems like I just wasted 30min typing up a report. I should’ve just posted a pic of my stance I did all day! I doubt you’ll have triangle or weaver stance when you’re actually fighting for your life. The stance you speak of is just for the ABC of Shooting with beginners. You can stand like a flamingo and shoot out to 50 no problem.

    How do I shoot on the move?

    How would I get off the X and put rounds on target fast?

    How do I shoot in and around vehicles?

    Barricade work?

    What’s that position you shoot from while laying on your back? Supine? Because as you know it’s not a matter of IF you get on the ground in a fight...it’s WHEN.

    Put the sights on target and don’t move the gun while pressing the trigger. Simple
    Why start with the douchiness? The stance is effed up, if it’s not a camera angle thing? You started the thread with the fact that this guy may be a fake/flake? I don’t know I’ve never heard of him, but I have heard of Ben Stoeger. You posted an AAR, another pointed out a stance in a picture, and also said it may be camera angle, but a “trainer” should have corrected the chill stance, because from this angle, the only fighting stance I see is fighting to stay upright?
     

    Trapper Jim

    Master
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    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
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    Arcadia
    Hmmm...Seems like I just wasted 30min typing up a report. I should’ve just posted a pic of my stance I did all day! I doubt you’ll have triangle or weaver stance when you’re actually fighting for your life. The stance you speak of is just for the ABC of Shooting with beginners. You can stand like a flamingo and shoot out to 50 no problem.

    How do I shoot on the move?

    How would I get off the X and put rounds on target fast?

    How do I shoot in and around vehicles?

    Barricade work?

    What’s that position you shoot from while laying on your back? Supine? Because as you know it’s not a matter of IF you get on the ground in a fight...it’s WHEN.

    Put the sights on target and don’t move the gun while pressing the trigger. Simple

    yes-yes yes to all this but only after you are scoring +70 % in any of the shooting sports. If not I consider it to be a huge waste of time and resources. Same thing with ability driven accessories. My opinion only.
     

    stoneytoney

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 17, 2014
    170
    18
    indy
    Why start with the douchiness? The stance is effed up, if it’s not a camera angle thing? You started the thread with the fact that this guy may be a fake/flake? I don’t know I’ve never heard of him, but I have heard of Ben Stoeger. You posted an AAR, another pointed out a stance in a picture, and also said it may be camera angle, but a “trainer” should have corrected the chill stance, because from this angle, the only fighting stance I see is fighting to stay upright?

    Because after I typed out everything just for others to scroll down and point out a simple stance. Missed the whole thing. I was actually ready to discuss the USPSA drama because I wanted to know what other shooters that compete thought about it or heard of the situation. Didn’t post the pic to be criticized. I posted the AAR to inform people on how he was face to face as a person and how he ran his classes just in case others were interested. On top of that, there was no constructive criticism. Seemed to like it was just like hmm interesting stance, what do you think Jim? Yeah I think it’s pretty interesting too... like two doctors in front of a patient discussing his or her health conditions right in front of them.

    Been shooting only for a year. Didn’t think I had to be Larry Vickers or whoever you drool over to make a informative post about a class.

    One of the reasons the 2A can’t get **** done. Division. If you don’t a certain thing, a certain way another person does it you’re automatically terrible or etc.
     
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    Vigilant

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    21   0   0
    Jul 12, 2008
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    Plainfield
    Because after I typed out everything just for others to scroll down and point out a simple stance. Missed the whole thing. I was actually ready to discuss the USPSA drama because I wanted to know what other shooters that compete thought about it or heard of the situation. Didn’t post the pic to be criticized. I posted the AAR to inform people on how he was face to face as a person and how he ran his classes just in case others were interested. On top of that, there was no constructive criticism. Seemed to like it was just like hmm interesting stance, what do you think Jim? Yeah I think it’s pretty interesting too... like two doctors in front of a patient discussing his or her health conditions right in front of them.

    Been shooting only for a year. Didn’t think I had to be Larry Vickers or whoever you drool over to make a informative post about a class.

    One of the reasons the 2A can’t get **** done. Division. If you don’t a certain thing a certain way another person does it your automatically terrible or etc.
    Again, kudos for getting training, I read your AAR before I commented. After the fact, I saw the stance, and came to the same conclusion. The person in the picture (you, or whoever?) has a serious rear lean in what APPEARS to be a stationary drill, please correct us if that is not the case, but, that is NOT a fighting stance, nor a proper shooting stance. Just saying. Otherwise, good AAR, again, never heard of him or his supposed cheating, so I won’t even armchair qb that. I will fault him for not correcting what again, APPEARS to be an improper stance?
     

    jsharmon7

    Grandmaster
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    Nov 24, 2008
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    Freedonia
    Holy hell, who cares about a snapshot of his stance? Hours of training, a one second snapshot, and panties have been bunched. Is it really that important to imply to others how much you know?

    I’m glad the AAR was posted. Sometimes I see classes advertised and I’d like to know what exactly I can expect to learn from them. Dropping a few hundred bucks in training is fine, but only if I feel like I’ll get something useful or unique. Thanks, OP!
     

    cedartop

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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
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    North of Notre Dame.
    Now that I am on a keyboard instead of my phone,,

    You don't always get everything laid out in order in response to AAR's, sometimes people just pop in and make a comment or ask a question while it is at the top of their mind and then come back later with more substantial conversation. It might make it a little hard to discuss something if you see everything as an attack however.

    You started with conversation about the instructors standing with the USPSA. First off Ben Stoeger while a magnificent shooter, is a jerk. So his protests alone to me have no bearing on the matter. Looking into what allegedly happened here however it appears as if there was some unusual actions taken by Mr. Cowden. If I understand things correctly he wasn't exactly cleared by the USPSA but they just voted to allow him to return to membership. There are plenty of people here who would know way more about this than me. I am not sure if it would affect my decision to train with him or not mainly because before your AAR he was not on my radar. The fact that he trained under Mike Pannone does carry some weight with me as I think a lot of Pannone.

    As to the class itself, did you mention this was your first class? And was this a one day class? If so, that was probably a pretty good bit of information to process. I must say I am in total agreement on your paragraph about his teachings on trigger control and reset. I first heard of that method from Ernest Langdon a few years ago and am totally on board with that at all except maybe the beginner level.

    Another question I have is, what was the safety/medical/emergency briefing like? I have been to a number of classes and this really seems to be all over the map so it is always interesting to me to see how people handle this aspect of a class.

    Do he have any unique drills that the class ran for time or man and man? Did you talk about or do any shooting and moving? How was this class advertised? As a beginners class? Were there any prerequisites?
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
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    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
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    OK fellas. This is why we can not have nice things. From the pic a lot or very little can be learned or lost. Lets have a discussion. If you want to be a butt then save it. seriously.
     

    stoneytoney

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 17, 2014
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    indy
    Now that I am on a keyboard instead of my phone,,

    You don't always get everything laid out in order in response to AAR's, sometimes people just pop in and make a comment or ask a question while it is at the top of their mind and then come back later with more substantial conversation. It might make it a little hard to discuss something if you see everything as an attack however.

    You started with conversation about the instructors standing with the USPSA. First off Ben Stoeger while a magnificent shooter, is a jerk. So his protests alone to me have no bearing on the matter. Looking into what allegedly happened here however it appears as if there was some unusual actions taken by Mr. Cowden. If I understand things correctly he wasn't exactly cleared by the USPSA but they just voted to allow him to return to membership. There are plenty of people here who would know way more about this than me. I am not sure if it would affect my decision to train with him or not mainly because before your AAR he was not on my radar. The fact that he trained under Mike Pannone does carry some weight with me as I think a lot of Pannone.

    As to the class itself, did you mention this was your first class? And was this a one day class? If so, that was probably a pretty good bit of information to process. I must say I am in total agreement on your paragraph about his teachings on trigger control and reset. I first heard of that method from Ernest Langdon a few years ago and am totally on board with that at all except maybe the beginner level.

    Another question I have is, what was the safety/medical/emergency briefing like? I have been to a number of classes and this really seems to be all over the map so it is always interesting to me to see how people handle this aspect of a class.

    Do he have any unique drills that the class ran for time or man and man? Did you talk about or do any shooting and moving? How was this class advertised? As a beginners class? Were there any prerequisites?

    THIS was the discussion I was hoping for.

    My Training Journey:

    Indy Firearms Training Intro to Handguns taken on my birthday which started my training journey last year.

    BFT classes:
    Gun Handling 101

    DP101 & 102

    Carry Gun Match Practices (not really classes but if Coach did see you do something wrong or a tip he would let ya know)

    And then This Tony Cowden class

    Couple of odd and end range sessions in between those classes. Focusing on what I learned from that previous class

    Rifle:
    I only took one rifle course with Point 1 Tactics at the same range (Impact) that involved transitioning from rifle to pistol. And the “check drill” and more. it only called for 100 or so pistol rounds there. Mainly focused on rifle

    I am now competing weekly in the carry Gun matches and also the USPSA thrown by Parabellum Gun Range, Coach and friends in Avon, IN

    This was a one day class...cost was $300. And yes it was quite a bit info overload. I actually told him this. I said most people didn’t have questions at the end because they’re still trying to process what they learned throughout the day. But I’m pretty sure we would think of something along the way. Another thing he said is we pretty much bought “HIM” any thing we need to work on...send an acceptable video and he would diagnose what he could see as long as he’s living. And if we don’t get a response in a couple of days send the message again. He says he’s on social media to help people and that’s it. Also has his own range in North Carolina and said every one of his students is more than welcome to come out. As long as he’s home...he’s Shooting something.

    The safety briefing went over the 4 rules. Squatting on the line vs bending over. Like dropped mags instead of bending over to get them squat so nothing goes over the firing line. And if you’re Gun is still drawn you won’t sweep your feet or the person next to you. Good practice on keeping your head up in situations as well. The closest hospital, and the range owners (husband and wife) were also there participating but would be the ones driving if an accident did happen since they were the only locals. They had 2 Polaris’ filled with med equipment and since we were downhill in one of the shooting bays those were the only things able to get in and out quick enough. I need to get medical training, so any local companies you guys know I would love to take a couple of classes.

    The most unique drill was the prep sight press. He made me just shoot in the burm to just focus on getting back to the wall as quickly as possible after I broke the shot. Saying wall wall wall wall wall right after a person shoots makes them get back on it quick and that’s when you get the BOP BOP light bulb moment. And that’s what I loved. I kept hearing CLICK BANGERS from JJ Racaza (Tony did take a class from him) but he really never got into detail on how to really work on it. This exercise shows you how to focus on just that trigger and then you can bring it back into your regular shooting drills.

    He also does this with transitions. At first we started with one shot on the first target and then just moved to the next target, we didn’t shoot it though. Just focused on seeing the sights and where was the trigger (which should’ve been on the wall) when we had an acceptable picture. After a couple of reps we did 1 and 1 and then 2 and 2 and so forth. He breaks everything down into lil chunks to digest easier but by the time you’re done. You ate too much
     
    Last edited:

    NHT3

    Grandmaster
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    52   0   0
    Kudos on you for getting training, you’ve already done more than a good portion of this community.
    Stance is unimportant, what matters is the ability to control the gun in recoil... Rob Leatham


    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright [/FONT]
     

    Trapper Jim

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    @TrapperJim: Left foot forward...right is back. Fighting stance. Caught me doing wide transitions where youÂ’re twisting at the hips.

    My apologies stoneytoney if it looked like I was raining on your parade. That was not my intention. You must understand that I am an opinionated cranky old man with random thoughts and no degree in journalism. I see INGO as a place where the gun culture can come together and use this medium for a thought provoking, educational, enlightening and entertaining discussion. I have taken a stance on many subjects that many will not dare. Some will not like what I say but it will always be what I feel is the truth. My process for measured responses have been very enlightening for many to say the least. There really is no right or wrong in any of it if you can hit your target and hit it quickly. Having said that, when I see something that deserves a debate I weigh in. My take on it is, if your belief can not stand a debate then how good is it? I've had many INGOERS agree, some undecided and a few that can't imagine the idea, but in the end, many have learned a different twist on things that have helped them. On each and every post I can show why I believe what I believe to work better. For some it May not make it right, but it makes it me. And so do many others. I am glad that you have and are being a student of the gun. I still take training classes now and again to see if I can pick up anything worthwhile. It is good money spent if you put the stuff into practice. This means many thousands of rounds and trigger time to develop the thoughtless inherent fundamentals. Many thanks to the moderators who make this forum work and help to provide us a place to exercise our First Amendment.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Stance is unimportant, what matters is the ability to control the gun in recoil... Rob Leatham


    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright [/FONT]

    Rob has a lot of quotes that appear one way but if you listen to or watch the whole thing of where it came from it is a much different picture. I remember the one video he did where the clickbait was sights are not important or something to that affect. If you watched the whole video he definitely wasn't suggesting you don't aim. My bet is when Rob shoots something where he has to hit fast and accurate he doesn't do it off of one foot if he can help it.
     
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