Church security, is everyone an expert?

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  • cedartop

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    So of course with the Texas shooting so much in the news I have seen all kinds of information out on church security. Some is from sources who were known to me to provide it previously (like Strategos), others I had no idea were involved in it

    So here is my question, is a firearms instructor, even if he is a well known one, automatically an expert on church security?
     

    jlw

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    Nope. There is a difference between physical security for an event and shooting skills. I recently provided training for a church security team (Defensive Pistol Skills course, requires decision making and deals with working in a crowd) but it was as a supplement to what their leader, a retired Secret Service Agent, had provided them. It was not a "let me teach you how to secure your church" class.

    Unfortunately, some are choosing to profiteer. The consumer needs to be diligent in choosing their source.
     

    Sylvain

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    So here is my question, is a firearms instructor, even if he is a well known one, automatically an expert on church security?

    Some firearms instructors are not even experts in their own field.

    Some will teach you how to shoot, others will teach you how to fight with a gun (with all the mindset and tactics that come with it).

    Most of the things you will need to know if you're part of a church security group will not be taught in a basic pistol course.
    Threat assessment, threat indicators, profiling, tactics, mindset, legal requirements, empty hand combat, restraint techniques, medical training to deal with potential victims, etc ... It goes well beyond knowing how to handle a gun.

    Find someone that can teach you all that and more.
     

    Vigilant

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    Nope. Two different realms, with a little bit of intersecting or overlapping TTPs. First and foremost church security groups should have some sort of interpersonal communications lesson blocks. They should be the ones door greeting and ushering, able to pinpoint problems before they reach the sanctuary and alert those who need be alerted. Next should be some sort of MUC lesson block in case they have to “head off” a situation without their firearm, along with some empty hand instruction blocks. First aid, Trauma, and team commo blocks, and then the firearms. Sound expensive? Probably is, which is why most churches don’t take it too serious. My wife’s church is a mega style church with thousands possible at one time, they hire 1 cop to walk the church.
     

    ECS686

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    Some firearms instructors are not even experts in their own field.

    Some will teach you how to shoot, others will teach you how to fight with a gun (with all the mindset and tactics that come with it).

    Most of the things you will need to know if you're part of a church security group will not be taught in a basic pistol course.
    Threat assessment, threat indicators, profiling, tactics, mindset, legal requirements, empty hand combat, restraint techniques, medical training to deal with potential victims, etc ... It goes well beyond knowing how to handle a gun.

    Find someone that can teach you all that and more.


    ^^^THIS^^^

    Typical bandwagon jumpers., With some trying to be the loudest person in the room. Several reputable vetted ones have offered classes before it was in the news.

    The ones that are loudest about it now are probably not the ones that are reputable and vetted! All about raising ones profile as some have said.
     

    Vigilant

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    On the converse side, there are probably some well known vetted instructors rethinking their curriculum to include church security. I’d like for John Lovell to do a series of courses on church security myself. If my wife’s church became more proactive, I’d happily join and volunteer to be a part of the security apparatus, but again it cost money, so they’d prefer to whitewash it with a single officer for thousands.
     

    Vigilant

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    Another question, my wife’s uncles church in Louisville has services for over 10K , how would you devise a security plan for that? You’d need a platoon or more to be effective.
     

    KokomoDave

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    We have a small church and a moderate sized team. We have overlapping areas of training that we interact within each other. We know the most likely scenario is a missing child. I am the only ex-LEO / instructor & I know my limitations. Some of our guys weren't comfortable with firearms so they were given medic classes. No Tackleberry types were given primary roles. They served by helping guide and protect the flock toward exits / hiding spots. It is exercised as well as fire rescue elements. I know we can't cover every scenario as they are dynamic not static.
     

    cedartop

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    Another question, my wife’s uncles church in Louisville has services for over 10K , how would you devise a security plan for that? You’d need a platoon or more to be effective.

    I have been to seminars held by someone who does security for mega churches. As you can imagine there is quite a bit to it and not all of it scales way down.
     

    Slonsteady

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    Nope. Two different realms, with a little bit of intersecting or overlapping TTPs. First and foremost church security groups should have some sort of interpersonal communications lesson blocks. They should be the ones door greeting and ushering, able to pinpoint problems before they reach the sanctuary and alert those who need be alerted. Next should be some sort of MUC lesson block in case they have to “head off” a situation without their firearm, along with some empty hand instruction blocks. First aid, Trauma, and team commo blocks, and then the firearms. Sound expensive? Probably is, which is why most churches don’t take it too serious. My wife’s church is a mega style church with thousands possible at one time, they hire 1 cop to walk the church.

    He is not alone. We are missing most of the elements you mentioned above however I CC there every weekend ( but not all of the services). I serve communion and keep a keen eye out at all times, I know it is just a small piece but I feel better doing it. I also carry pepper, knife, and light. I upgraded my holster to OWB with retention and carry an extra mag. I also work hard on personal fitness and adrenaline situations as a hunter, hiker, runner. This became more urgent when I turned 60 last year. I plan on talking with an elder about doing more and getting plugged into the comm loop If it exists. I think churches need to focus more on the perimeter and sanctuary access.
    God bless the soles who gave their best.
     

    Vigilant

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    He is not alone. We are missing most of the elements you mentioned above however I CC there every weekend ( but not all of the services). I serve communion and keep a keen eye out at all times, I know it is just a small piece but I feel better doing it. I also carry pepper, knife, and light. I upgraded my holster to OWB with retention and carry an extra mag. I also work hard on personal fitness and adrenaline situations as a hunter, hiker, runner. This became more urgent when I turned 60 last year. I plan on talking with an elder about doing more and getting plugged into the comm loop If it exists. I think churches need to focus more on the perimeter and sanctuary access.
    God bless the soles who gave their best.
    I applaud your willingness, but unless you, That one cop, and the church are all in agreement, and operating off of the same sheet of music, problems, sometimes catastrophic ones may occur. Does the lone officer know who is a “sheepdog”, has there been any sort of drills or practices? One defender, and a bunch of dudes carrying guns with little to no training, especially together, is a disaster waiting to happen. Look at all the bad muzzle discipline shown with this one church shooting, imagine a church 10 times that size, with 10 times as many “sheepdogs” all drawing weapons and converging on the same spot! Churches need to sit back and take this **** seriously, they spend money on way less important stuff.
     

    Sylvain

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    On the converse side, there are probably some well known vetted instructors rethinking their curriculum to include church security. I’d like for John Lovell to do a series of courses on church security myself. If my wife’s church became more proactive, I’d happily join and volunteer to be a part of the security apparatus, but again it cost money, so they’d prefer to whitewash it with a single officer for thousands.

    I think he does that already.I remember him mentioning it.
    He either has some videos on the subject or he does consulting/classes for churches.

    We have a small church and a moderate sized team. We have overlapping areas of training that we interact within each other. We know the most likely scenario is a missing child. I am the only ex-LEO / instructor & I know my limitations. Some of our guys weren't comfortable with firearms so they were given medic classes. No Tackleberry types were given primary roles. They served by helping guide and protect the flock toward exits / hiding spots. It is exercised as well as fire rescue elements. I know we can't cover every scenario as they are dynamic not static.

    That's probably the most important. :yesway:
    They also need the gear to go with the skills.I'm not sure if churches keep large trauma kits like some schools do.

    Also not arming folks not comfortable with firearms is also good.
     

    Trapper Jim

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    Nope. Two different realms, with a little bit of intersecting or overlapping TTPs. First and foremost church security groups should have some sort of interpersonal communications lesson blocks. They should be the ones door greeting and ushering, able to pinpoint problems before they reach the sanctuary and alert those who need be alerted. Next should be some sort of MUC lesson block in case they have to “head off” a situation without their firearm, along with some empty hand instruction blocks. First aid, Trauma, and team commo blocks, and then the firearms. Sound expensive? Probably is, which is why most churches don’t take it too serious. My wife’s church is a mega style church with thousands possible at one time, they hire 1 cop to walk the church.


    This is is so on the money. Shooting and Security are two different things. Until the citizen ponies up to the money, education and interaction with each other congregation of any kind are not secure from the madman.
     

    KokomoDave

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    Sylvain, I bought the trauma kits and donated them. The local Red Cross provided free basic training and a local certified medic donated the rest of the training. I just bought a batch of Persys kits from Botach (Don't boo them or me...they have been good to us since I buy this stuff out of my pocket) .
     

    churchmouse

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    So of course with the Texas shooting so much in the news I have seen all kinds of information out on church security. Some is from sources who were known to me to provide it previously (like Strategos), others I had no idea were involved in it

    So here is my question, is a firearms instructor, even if he is a well known one, automatically an expert on church security?

    No. They are scrambling for a dollar. Not all but many I am sure.
     

    ECS686

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    One thing I observed that nobody has mentioned is outside of the upset and screaming (shock). It seemed the Parishioners stayed down out of the way. Which helped allow the "team" to do what they had to do.

    And those that did flee stayed down out of the way, almost like they were trained to do. As they should be.
     
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