Shooting or Fighting

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    That being said (and I agree with his article) Dave even at his age is still a very good shooter, uses a timer in his classes, and expects his students to shoot well.

    Is shooting well necessary in a gunfight?
     

    eldirector

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    10   0   0
    Apr 29, 2009
    14,677
    113
    Brownsburg, IN
    Is shooting well necessary in a gunfight?
    Seems to be pointing out a difference between combat effective and being a marksman.

    The gangster in his example may look ridiculous while killing you, but you are just as dead. Your 3 Gun scores may be top 10%, but if you aren't willing to engage, that's the end.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Is shooting well necessary in a gunfight?
    Only of you are interested in ending the fight quickly without unintended consequences, otherwise it is a crap shoot.

    See where I have a problem with this is not what Dave intended but what people read into it. The whole "combat accuracy" bull****. I have seen this so many times in training. And we have seen the results of it in videos and police shootouts many times. Shooting vs. fighting doesn't have to be a thing. You can be a great shooter with a **** poor fighting mindset or you can be a mediocre shooter with a good fighting mindset. Better yet, you can be a great shooter with a good combative mindset and tactical skills. Which do you want to be?
    Y
     

    Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    I just took it as shooting well is not enough. Cooper also said gunhandling and marksmanship are not enough. Mindset is important.
     

    Randy Harris

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 22, 2012
    248
    28
    Seems to be pointing out a difference between combat effective and being a marksman.

    The gangster in his example may look ridiculous while killing you, but you are just as dead. Your 3 Gun scores may be top 10%, but if you aren't willing to engage, that's the end.


    The problem is that folks want to build this “straw man “ construct of the guy who shoots well but does not have the mindset to deal with anything more threatening than a girl scout aggressively selling cookies.... And then that construct is forced upon us as the only way it can be (all excellent shooters are bipedal cheeseburgers waiting to be eaten or nobody with proper mindset can shoot) and we end up somehow coming to the conclusion that “ barely competent “ with a killer instinct is what we want to aspire to.

    Now are there dudes who are excellent technical shooters who view it as a sport only? Yes and I have met some of them in my journey through high level match shooting but those guys that resemble our straw man are truly a small percentage.

    The problem comes when you focus ONLY on the technical skills without putting in the work to develop the mindset and will to win and frankly the will to do whatever it takes to survive no matter how unpleasant it might be and what kind of violence it might require. So you end up with exceptionally high physical skills with exceptionally under developed mindset.

    On the other hand there are plenty of stone cold killers that don’t have the gun skill of an IDPA marksman . Does that mean we should just aspire to only that level of skill? I guess that appeals to some folks but I’ve never understood it.

    The thing is that the two are not mutually exclusive. For every highly skilled victim in waiting there are also stone cold killers with IPSC Master class skills . And I’m pretty sure that Charles Askins never once wished mid gunfight that he had spent LESS time learning how to shoot so well. For those not familiar Askins won TWO National Bullseye Championships....and a bunch of gunfights.

    So yeah there are some guys with “top ten % 3 gun scores” but are unwilling to engage ....but there are also dudes with top 10% skill who are willing to drop the hammer at the drop of a hat....and I’d much rather be on that end of the spectrum than very willing but just barely competent.
     
    Last edited:

    bwframe

    Loneranger
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    93   0   0
    Feb 11, 2008
    38,170
    113
    Btown Rural
    Sounds like an argument between those who are too self-conscious to compete and those who don't put a gun on for the trip home from the match?
     

    Vigilant

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Jul 12, 2008
    11,659
    83
    Plainfield
    Sounds like an argument between those who are too self-conscious to compete and those who don't put a gun on for the trip home from the match?
    I don’t compete any longer because of the petty fiefdoms that have sprung up in the clubs I have shot at. I train more than the average guy, and less than some others. I have access to a private range where I can reinforce the basics, and things I’ve learned in class. I go to the range hot, run the range hot, and leave the range hot. Self consciousness doesn’t enter into it. I don’t care for the bullet golf crowd, and choose not to hang out with them simple as that. I shoot better than some, and some shoot better than me, doesn’t affect me to lose to another shooter, as long as I did my part, and did it correctly.
     

    Twangbanger

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Oct 9, 2010
    7,062
    113
    ......but there are also dudes with top 10% skill who are willing to drop the hammer at the drop of a hat....and I’d much rather be on that end of the spectrum than very willing but just barely competent.

    Let's not forget the dudes with _bottom_ 10% skill, who are willing to drop the hammer literally at the drop of a hat. And get themselves in a boatload of legal trouble as a result. (Who we hear about on INGO every so often). People belligerent enough to go apeshxxt at the first provocation...but can't be bothered to practice.

    Willingness to put in effort is meaningful, across a variety of disciplines and subject subdivisions. We shouldn't forget that the gun is an equalizer against superior physical strength. There are people who are simply not cut out to be CrossFit/MMA/BJJ Rollers, but for whom the gun is a great option, and the willingness to practice with it (and become good with it) should not be disparaged. It might be the only thing they do. It might be the only thing they _can_ do. It should not be a point for constant pontification.

    I agree everybody needs to get off the high horse.
     

    Trapper Jim

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
    2,676
    77
    Arcadia
    Fealty that happens at all the clubs I know in the Country are very reasonable IMHO. Clubs take land people and money to operate. Rules are Reactive. Most of them have a BOD and are volunteers. Just like our country members can lobby and step up to help run the club. I have two private facilities to shoot on but have the most fun and test the ranking at the organized matches. It is easy to give up but competition keeps you sharp. Whatever your reason for having a gun, you are better off being skilled to your max with it.
     
    Top Bottom