Join INGunOwners For Free
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 28
  1. #11
    Grandmaster jsharmon7's Avatar

    User Info Menu

    I reject the notion that resume should be at the top of the list. Someone who served multiple combat tours may not have too much practical knowledge in civilian self defense (legal considerations, drawing from concealment, etc.). If I wanted a class in room clearing with a rifle though, Iíd probably looking for that guy. The same thing goes for people who rely on being a police officer to fill classes. What I do in uniform is not the same as what someone at the grocery store can/will do. I have immunity, policy, case law, etc. that changes the approach.

    I think knowledge and communication ability are the most important considerations. Iíve known people who could shoot and fight at an extremely high level but couldnít articulate to others how to do the same. It just came naturally to them and they couldnít explain it well to others. Iíve also known people who were absolute geniuses when it came to tactics and explaining concepts, but they were pretty average shooters at best.

    Iíd rather be educated by instructor instead of impressed by them. I think sometimes people seek out top name instructors just to put it on their own resume that they trained with so-and-so as a way to boost their own star.
    Last edited by jsharmon7; 1 Week Ago at 11:08.
    'Til that time I will remain, 'til the sinners lay down with the saints.

  2. #12
    Grandmaster drillsgt's Avatar

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jsharmon7 View Post
    I reject the notion that resume should be at the top of the list. Someone who served multiple combat tours may not have too much practical knowledge in civilian self defense (legal considerations, drawing from concealment, etc.). If I wanted a class in room clearing with a rifle though, Iíd probably looking for that guy. The same thing goes for people who rely on being a police officer to fill classes. What I do in uniform is not the same as what someone at the grocery store can/will do. I have immunity, policy, case law, etc. that changes the approach.

    I think knowledge and communication ability are the most important considerations. Iíve known people who could shoot and fight at an extremely high level but couldnít articulate to others how to do the same. It just came naturally to them and they couldnít explain it well to others. Iíve also known people who were absolute geniuses when it came to tactics and explaining concepts, but they were pretty average shooters at best.

    Iíd rather be educated by instructor instead of impressed by them. I think sometimes people seek out top name instructors just to put it on their own resume that they trained with so-and-so as a way to boost their own star.
    Great post right here, pretty much says it all. One advantage of a military background is you get a lot of experience teaching or presenting, whether you want to or not (you may not be awesome but it's good experience). It could be something as simple as teaching to your team or squad or briefing a mission to a command team. I know in the drillsgt world like anywhere we have those who can do it better than others. You have some guys that yell a lot and look like that scary DS and can run A group to death but have them give a class and it's torture. Then you have some quiet more academic DS's that can break down something like the land nav class to where even the dumbest PVT can understand it. In any field you'll find good teachers and while i'd go to a class with tmac you don't need a delta guy to show you how to competently use a firearm. In reality there isn't really anything new under the sun when it comes to handling and shooting firearms even though people try to come up with something to differentiate themselves. When I lived up in MI I taught the CPL class with a lawyer friend and we received a lot of student referrals so we must have been doing something right. When I go back up there people still ask me if i'm teaching so that's nice.

  3. #13
    Grandmaster turnandshoot4's Avatar

    User Info Menu

    This podcast has interesting points about this subject in the beginning.

    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000474054831

    For those that won't give it a listen, consider this:
    If you can shoot better than someone should you take a class from them?
    If you can win a boxing match against someone would you train under them?

    The podcast makes good points that just because someone might not be better than you they can still teach you techniques.

    I came to terms with this when I ended up at a steel challenge match with a big name trainer. (Delta and SWAT guy) He was running an RMR'd glock and I was running a DA/SA Shadow. I ended up beating him that day. At first my thought was, "Well, guess I'll have to train under someone else." After reflecting on it that view was incredibly short sighted.
    So low speed I'm in park.

  4. #14
    Grandmaster turnandshoot4's Avatar

    User Info Menu

    Baader-Meinhof phenomenon in full effect here

    https://www.integratedskillsgroup.co...ET-_h7xd_9PU_E
    So low speed I'm in park.

  5. #15
    Master Brad69's Avatar

    User Info Menu

    I enjoy discussing this subject!

    My experience in the Army you were being paid to train not just weapons but everything you do other than a deployment was training. On a myriad of subjects call for fire, land nav, blah blah blah. Weapons are just a piece of the pie not whole thing and a 10 level task (basic Soldier). That being said I enjoy taking a class with Coach as much as LAV different skill sets both have a similar approach in training and instructional techniques.e

    I look for no BS lets start shooting work on drills and ID weakness and give tips to improve work though situations and explain why things work. I want to leave with the knowledge to improve my skills on whatever subject trained on.

    The guys that want to ďgearĒ themselves into being a whatever mentioned in a previous post need a wake up call. 71% of 17-24 year olds are not eligible to even apply to the military. Gear alone is not the answer.
    I will post a example of what a normal week of garrison physical training looks like.

    0515-0525 Sick Call
    Medic will check you if you donít have a temp or a leg falling off you will attend PT
    BTW you cannot call in sick or miss a day, put all your ďfamily emergenciesĒ out of your mind

    0530 Accountability formation
    0530-0545 Warm up
    0545-0645 PT
    0645-0700 Cool Down
    0700 Formation

    Monday
    Minimum four mile run
    Can do a relay run, all runs need to 8 minute mile or faster

    Tuesday
    Upper Body- Platoons will rotate though weight room stations
    outside will be buddy carry and water and ammo can carries in body armor

    Wednesday
    Lower Body - wind sprints, leg lifts, 2mile run 7 min or faster

    Thursday
    Core training

    Friday
    Company/Battalion Run
    However fast and long the Commander wants to run?

    Oh donít fallout!
    U.S. Army retired

  6. #16
    Grandmaster BehindBlueI's's Avatar

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Twangbanger View Post
    How do you establish objectively that "somebody can teach?"

    Outcomes of students. Call it the Eddie Futch metric.

    Eddie Futch trained 21 world champions. He boxed well at the amateur level but, due to a heart condition, never boxed once professionally. If he could be a champion himself or not, who knows or cares. He could obviously train others to be champions. Seems like a pretty objective indication he could teach boxing.

    So, do students leave better than they arrived? If I want to learn use of force legalities, do I leave knowing more then I did arriving? If I want to learn competition shooting, do I do better in matches after the class then before?

    Obviously each student has a different capacity to learn, but if Mr. Futch makes 21 champions and I am not one of them it's likely not Mr. Futch's fault.
    L'otters are not afraid.

  7. #17
    Grandmaster

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad69 View Post
    I enjoy discussing this subject!

    .
    0515-0525 Sick Call
    Medic will check you if you donít have a temp or a leg falling off you will attend PT
    BTW you cannot call in sick or miss a day, put all your ďfamily emergenciesĒ out of your mind

    0530 Accountability formation
    0530-0545 Warm up
    0545-0645 PT
    0645-0700 Cool Down
    0700 Formation

    Monday
    Minimum four mile run
    Can do a relay run, all runs need to 8 minute mile or faster

    Tuesday
    Upper Body- Platoons will rotate though weight room stations
    outside will be buddy carry and water and ammo can carries in body armor

    Wednesday
    Lower Body - wind sprints, leg lifts, 2mile run 7 min or faster

    Thursday
    Core training

    Friday
    Company/Battalion Run
    However fast and long the Commander wants to run?

    Oh donít fallout!
    So that would have been a slacker week when I was with the 7thID at Ord, but I imagine that is still a harder week than is average in the Army. I am going to assume you were in Combat Arms.
    Michael Swisher

  8. #18
    Expert

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by turnandshoot4 View Post
    Why people can't coach or teach -

    Watching John Danaher videos helped me understand more of why I can watch someone and be able to do it. The devil is in the details. Instead of understanding the gross movements (where most people stop) is fine but being able to watch the small details really changes the technique. Danaher goes on and on about the details, which makes it boring for me, but I already saw them.

    Coach hit the nail on the head on being able to dissect the technique. There is much more than "just shoot the target" for someone that has never done it.
    I think this ability to diagnose what someone else is doing, is what separates good instructors from the rest. It doesn't matter how well you can demonstrate a skill if you can't explain the "why" behind the method and can spot and correct mistakes. It's not about what you said, but about what they heard.

  9. #19
    Grandmaster
    Coach's Avatar

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by turnandshoot4 View Post
    This podcast has interesting points about this subject in the beginning.

    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000474054831

    For those that won't give it a listen, consider this:
    If you can shoot better than someone should you take a class from them?
    If you can win a boxing match against someone would you train under them?

    The podcast makes good points that just because someone might not be better than you they can still teach you techniques.

    I came to terms with this when I ended up at a steel challenge match with a big name trainer. (Delta and SWAT guy) He was running an RMR'd glock and I was running a DA/SA Shadow. I ended up beating him that day. At first my thought was, "Well, guess I'll have to train under someone else." After reflecting on it that view was incredibly short sighted.
    I listened to the first part. I like your whole point wirh this thread in some ways. I think the ability to teach is very important. Let me ask this question. If someone knows the fundamentals why can they not shoot well? If the reason is age ok. But other than that if they know what it takes they should be able to shoot well. Do you really want to live the mantra of those who cannot do teach?
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com

    Rangemaster Certified Instructor
    USCCA Certified Instructor
    USPSA Range Officer

  10. #20
    Master Twangbanger's Avatar

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Outcomes of students. Call it the Eddie Futch metric.

    Eddie Futch trained 21 world champions. He boxed well at the amateur level but, due to a heart condition, never boxed once professionally. If he could be a champion himself or not, who knows or cares. He could obviously train others to be champions. Seems like a pretty objective indication he could teach boxing.

    So, do students leave better than they arrived? If I want to learn use of force legalities, do I leave knowing more then I did arriving? If I want to learn competition shooting, do I do better in matches after the class then before?

    Obviously each student has a different capacity to learn, but if Mr. Futch makes 21 champions and I am not one of them it's likely not Mr. Futch's fault.
    I agree with that, and it's precisely why I asked the question. How many "gun defense trainers" have the data to back up their craft to an "Eddie Futch" level? If the key word is "objectively," the likely answer is not many. For every Tom Givens who can back up his craft with objective data on students who met the elephant and survived...there's a whole passel of instructors of the "I really got a lot out of this class" variety. Which is who the OP seems to be sticking up for.

    So, are we simply back to idolatry again? Because that's what the OP asked about. And I was trying to generate consideration of the fact that "Idolatry" doesn't just apply to the "Uber Gods." It also applies to lesser-known local instructors whom people simply "like," and whose resumes are probably a lot shorter than the "big names." If you exclude "Idolatry" from the equation, you're not just knocking out the top dogs. There's actually a heckuva lot of people at all levels who are relying on it to a great degree, more than any kind of proven track record of the type you mention. When you start talking data, I have a feeling that sort of analysis is going to exclude a lot of the same type of instructors the OP is trying to champion.

    There is Idolatory all up and down the resume spectrum. Some have just been at it longer, and have more proponents. It shouldn't necessarily be completely tossed from consideration. It's really closely related to that other term, "reputation." Something which is not necessarily data-driven, but not totally worthless, either.


Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Button Dodge